to thank Emily Thornberry profusely

[longfingernails]

She has just shown how much Labour detest the aspirational working class, the swingiest of swing voters. Labour will be hit with this again and again and again; ever denial and denunciation will just bring Labour's true views to a wider audience. Fundamentally, it will only reinforce the undeniable fact that Miliband's centre of gravity is firmly ensconced in Islington.

She has made a Tory/UKIP coalition, perhaps the best possible electoral outcome, much more likely. Thank you Emily!

But ukip are anti Europe and anti free movement within the eu, cherries.

And farage makes dodgy comments about the horrors of living next door to Romanians etc that are absolutely designed to appeal to the worst, most ill- informed types of bigotry. If its all about knowing the truth, why doesn't farage say emigrants contribute positively to the economy?

Because they don't feel they do voysge they see building/driving/labouring jobs going to lower paid Europeans.

That's their reality and the reality here in the west Mids.

Well, yes, exactly. The real figures don't matter to people at the bottom of the economy: they always "know" that immigration is bad.

They're not going to look at NHS staffing, or the taxes paid by Taiwanese expats, when they see competition for their jobs on their doorstep.

Cutting the welfare state makes that more acute, and stokes the fire.

Oh right so how people "feel" is more important than the statistical facts (like where the money for their tax credits comes from). Completely sums up UKIP. And hence abbot's point I guess.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that that the purpose of uncontrolled freedom of labour across the EU is create a labour surplus meaning more people competing for the same jobs forcing wages down.

I mean I personally am not a genuis. I work in an office just like millions of other people. Pretty much anyone who speaks English, can use a computer and learn to do a few job specific skills can do my job. That means that I am essentially competing against tens of millions of people in the UK plus maybe a 100 million in the wider EU. That means if I ask for more money or better working conditions my employer can say "no and if you dont like it leave there are plenty of other people who will be happy to have your job".

I would consider myself a socialist and I believe that Labour as SOCIALIST party should be against something that essentially creates a poorly paid de-unionized work force.

That said I will not be voting UKIP as they have a lot of rather peculiar and unpleasant people and policies.

It shows she hasn't got a clue (England played Scotland at football on Tuesday), why would flying the English flag be worthy of sneering.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Johnny. After the war the ruling classes knew they had to give the people what they were demanding. Education, healthcare, workers rights etc.. But subsequently whatever the party, those rights have been and are being slowly eroded! Divide and conquer, exactly the purpose of immigration. Raise house prices by increasing demand. Create low wages by increasing supply if workers. Erode free and simply access to education, healthcare and housing. Denigrate anyone who stands their way as racist or ignorant. Notice how labour went from a working class part to being one populated by ex public school types. Notice what is happening to UKIP now, ex public school types joining. That's why all the parties are the same and why they pursue the same policies and why social mobility is going down and why those in those parties laugh at a house with an English flag on it!

I'd like the OP to explain how someone's "centre of gravity" (whatever that is) can be "ensconced" somewhere. I think her ability to write sensible English may be ensconced at the bottom of the lavatory.

She's shown the true face of some not very nice people with elitist views who are now in charge of the Labour party. Make no mistake she is an elitist who has looked down on the person in this house with the white van and England flags.

Labour abhors patriotism. We are the greatest country in the world but metropolitan Labour/Guardian/MN/BBC types would sneer at anyone who dares express their pride in it.

For wealthy politicians immigration is great, it's great for corporates too, it drives down wages, they don't give a shit if we can't get school places or the nhs is bursting from overuse.

I agree with cherries and thebody. It seems Farage is more interested in the lives and future of average British people than labour and the tories. I never thought I'd say that.

Labour abhors patriotism, huh. That's odd, because patriotism is quite useful when you're trying to get the country behind your latest illegal war, but you're entitled to your opinion obviously.

Can I just ask in what specific area(s) you feel Britain is the greatest country in the world? Statistical back-up would be nice, but since we seem to be working on the basis that what you feel is more important than facts, free-form ranting will be fine. And you do it so well.

The greatest country in the world? You are having a laugh!

The UK has horrific levels of inequality - London is the richest area in Northern Eurpe, but 9 of the 10 poorest areas are in England and Wales. People have to subsist with the help of food banks, including people in work. People claiming any benefits, including in-work benefits, are callecd lazy, workshy scroungers, even though they may be a damn sight more intelligent than DC and his cronies and most likely infinitely more hard-working; they just haven't had their advantages. Yet we're all manipulated to ignore this by fighting with and hating one another.

This country is an embarrassment!

I work in an office just like millions of other people. Pretty much anyone who speaks English, can use a computer and learn to do a few job specific skills can do my job. That means that I am essentially competing against tens of millions of people in the UK plus maybe a 100 million in the wider EU. That means if I ask for more money or better working conditions my employer can say "no and if you dont like it leave there are plenty of other people who will be happy to have your job".

I would consider myself a socialist and I believe that Labour as SOCIALIST party should be against something that essentially creates a poorly paid de-unionized work force.

Just so. Labour cannot claim to represent ordinary working people until they rescind their backing for the EU, an institution one of whose founding principles is labour competition, ie a race to the bottom for wages and conditions. As long as Labour supports the EU Labour is anti the working poor.

Patriotism or nationalism? Seems to be the conversation none of these political parties want to have. I'm working class and I know what I think of people that hang flags out of their window (bar celebrations) and it's not 'aspirational working class'.

up don't be so bloody silly!

If you are born in the west you have won the lottery.

'If you are born in the west you have won the lottery.'

thebodynowchillingsothere I am guessing you don't rely on food banks or live in a B&B ?

The conversation the political elite want to have is them against us, not actually about how we want this country to be!

I am guessing you don't too.

And I am also guessing you have never nursed In Africa?

Everyone In the west has won the world lottery.

What I found so jaw dropping about it was the fact that she said that she had 'never seen such a thing before'. And that it astounded her and she thought it was extraordinary.

It was a fairly normal scene, I wouldn't even glance at that. Taking away anything about any connotations of the England flag etc, it was just the fact that she was so completely out of touch with such large parts of the country that she genuinely found it remarkable.

I imagine that there are an awful lot of mumsnetters who won't get this. But to people who live where I live, in a northern city, it's just jaw dropping that someone could say something like that. It was a kind of Marie-Antoinette 'Let them eat cake moment'. That this woman from Islington was so cossetted from the lives of ordinary voters that she could genuinely believe that such a scene was something completely out of the ordinary when it's something fairly common all over the country.

It just made them look out of touch with the people who are supposed to be Labour's core voters.

Also, for me, partly; I think her claims that she did it because she thought it was remarkable was a lie. I've been in Green Lanes not far from her constituency during tournaments and have seen Greek flags festooned everywhere so I'm sure she must have seen them. I suspect that it was snobbery and condesencion, but then she compounded it by telling a lie pretending it was somehow 'remarkable' to her which just made everything worse.

From Ed Miliband's point of view, not only was there the initial faux pas of the picture (which I think she could have come back from) but the attempts she made afterwards to backtrack were appalling, her apology was insincere and suggesting that she was 'persecuted' for being from Islington was frankly laughable.

Her reaction turned what might have been a minor twitter storm into a huge story and she just made it worse and worse. I'm not surprised Miliband was apoplectic with rage. And I'm not surprised she had to resign as a front bencher. Not perhaps because of the picture etc, but because I don't know how anybody in her party could have had any confidence in her ability to handle a high pressure situation again.

Things have reached a point where the only sensible answer is UKIP. I despair.

Woah, both can be true.

It can be the case that the UK is a country with huge national resources that make being born here a lucky win.

And at the same time be a fucking disgrace that, in this country with these resources, there are people needing food banks.

Well when you've made as many food bank referrals as I have, please point me to the ones who are lottery winners.

I think the point thebody is making is that in plenty of parts of the world there is no safety net, no medical care, no food banks, no funded housing even in B&Bs, nothing. Plus the climate is temperate, there are no active wars and the political system does not permit tortures, disappearances, dictatorships or more than a fairly low level of corruption. Relatively speaking, even being on the bones of your arse in the UK is not that bad.

That doesn't mean it is not a disgrace that some are relying on food banks when the country is wealthy. But we could tone down the angry just a notch.