To think that this teacher's attitude to inclusion needs challenging? (Sorry long)

[Firebell5]

Should I take it up with the Head or keep trying to get her there with my (limited) charm?! Would be interested in views of "typical" children's parents too...
My son, who has Down's Syndrome, attends the local (outstanding) mainstream school nursery for 15 hours per week. He has a 25 hours pro-rata Statement because of his learning difficulties and a range of medical conditions now largely resolved. There are 1 teacher and 3 TAs for 38 children in the class. The TAs take turns to work with him and all seem very warm towards him. He is still in nappies but does say "poo" when he is about to poo or have a wee. He is 4 years old but has the functional speech of a 2 year old, though he understands a lot more and uses a lot of Makaton signs. He is very mobile and settled well into the nursery; was happy there from day 1 and learnt the new routines within a week.

Teacher seems a reserved woman by nature, but I am beginning to wonder if her attitude to inclusion is off and it's effecting her work with him -
When I went to collect him today she gave me details of the school panto trip in 2 weeks time. Although the panto is aimed at 3-6 year olds, last year apparently quite a lot of the children got frightened and ended up on the teachers' laps. It was fine 2 years ago. I know she is a bit worried about his reaction because a couple of times he has got up and moved away when the children have screamed in class. The whole trip takes place within nursery time, including a bus for the 20 mile round trip. There is a £5 charge and no option of nursery if he doesn't go.
So...she basically made it obvious she didn't think he should go...can't remember the exact words...as usual I get a bit flustered during these conversations. First it was because the other children were frightened last year. When I told her I have had my DBS done and could come she told me there was no room on the bus for me. She has already given the 2 seats to a student and another mother who apparently asked ages ago. The letter states "We do not require parent helpers on this trip but don't worry there will be other trips later in the year!". When I said I could meet them there she expressed concern about the bus trip. I told her that he had been on numerous bus trips without me; both to and from his previous nursery (SN travel provision) and also a day trip to a farm about 20 miles away last term. He is quite happy about it. She didn't seem convinced. So she had lined up 3 reasons that he couldn't come without discussing it with me first.
We agreed that I would think about it overnight. My attitude is that he should be presumed to be included rather than not. Obviously I don't want to put him or her staff in inappropriate situations, but he needs to be given a chance to try these things. This just seems to be the latest in a pattern...
The school do a staggered start to term, but when I turned up on his orientation day I was told that his start date had been put back to 4 weeks. This was because she was worried about settling all 38 all children. Apparently there would be at least 10 in tears at anyone time. Or perhaps to do with birthday (he is in fact the oldest.) Or perhaps because his name wasn't down (they have known he was coming since last November.) Also there was no changing mat. Also they needed more training (the SaLT and OT been having meetings or going in since last May.)
On parents evening she told me she was "worried that the other children wouldn't accept him." This is his fourth nursery and no one has ever said that to me before. Was staggered. "Of course he doesn't share..." He can share and even if there was reluctance in a new settling, surely it's their job to facilitate this especially as it's on his Statement and SaLT and OT programmes. When asked if they were able to fit in his exercises was told "we do our best" end of discussion. It emerged that they weren't doing all that the SaLT had instructed. And if they were it was with the only non English speaker.
Other background is that we moved here earlier in the year for my husband's job, 300 miles from friends and family so I need to make these relationships work. Also have a lively 18 month old and am 30 weeks pregnant with gestational diabetes so probably v sensitive!
It is a steep learning curve for all of us and naturally I would rather she came willingly, but does she need a kick up the bum?

Mum of a DD with Ds here (now 15, still in Mainstream) and it sounds as if you are being a bit short-changed here. The purpose of his 1-1 is to support his learning - and that person should automatically be accompanying him on the class trip. In reality the 1-1 may not be full time - we have never got above 80% funded, some schools make up the difference, some schools 'pool' resources so you have shared support but in a case like this I would expect school to facilitate the 1-1 being there for the duration of the trip, ie not leaving the panto half an hour early because he only usually works till 2.

If this is the nursery attached to the primary you hope to be using (not sure of new terminololgy but in my day we would have named it in the statement) I would get into see the Senco asap as you need attitude/culture issues flagged as it can take time to change these.

Good luck - you are as someone has said upthread your child's best advocate.

As said above if he has a 1-1 there is no reason why he can't go on the trip. The teacher is a fool and needs to have some Sen training.
If you think your ds would enjoy the trip fight for his place why should he not go.

I'm sorry, her attitude does suck, I am a teacher myself, and a parent of a disabled child, and sadly NOT all schools/teachers are great at managing inclusion. It can be done, but it takes experience and skill. So if you want to keep your ds in mainstream, and why shouldn't you...sometimes it's better to choose a school that is less high achieving (according to ofsted/estyn) and yet has far more experience with children with additional needs. I moved my daughter in year three from precisely this reason, as we were dealing with a similar attitude.she went to a school with a very high number of sen pupils in mainstream and got fantastic support. So it's really important you consider if this school really is the right one....because otherwise you are going to be battling every year.

The only way you're going to find that out is by challenging the head and senco about this and based on their reactions, that should tell you all you need to know.

I think that contrary to other posts children with ALN can do really well in mainstream settings but it's pointless unless the school are fully onboard. The teachers remarks are disappointing, especially when you have offered to support :(

Pantos are frightening. I went with DTs reception class years ago and many cried. DS was terrified of 'bad guys' for ages. She should have let you volunteer and shouldn't make assumptions

As for acceptance, DTs had a friend with Downs Syndrome in their class. He was accepted by the entire class (and school) and DCs really missed him when he went to a SN high school.

I work in a mainstream school with several children with very obvious SN in my class, and there has never been a question of other children "not accepting them". They actually rarely even ask questions at 3, 4, 5 years old and totally accept other children for who they are.

How horrible. It's not complicated- there is no valid reason he cannot go. Please don't doubt yourself, you are not being sensitive.
Fwiw I wouldn't challenge her attitude at this moment. I would use the panto situation to charmingly but very assertively show that you will not tolerate that type of discrimination. He has to go and they need to find a solution.
If there is no change in attitude then yes, start recording things and planning how to challenge.
Since you asked, my Ds is 'typical' .
You have a lot on your plate and a lot of professionals in your life whose help and expertise you rely on, maybe it makes it hard to see the wood for the trees. But you know it really, she is being totally shitty to you and your son.

Provision for the children should be sorted before seats are allocated to parents. They should not be telling you that your DS can't attend because the only person who could support him is you and another parent gets priority over you for the last seat on the bus (unless her child's attendance is dependent on her being there too).

Your DS has every right to be included in all class activities, including trips out. You need to tell the teacher that he has sufficient support allocated to him to enable him to attend and, if that isn't sufficient, they need to approach the LA for additional funding.

A lot Mainstream schools seem to do this, same thing happened to my friends ds who had ASD. I woukd nit let this drop, you have offered to meet him there, this has been rejected. He dies nit have issues with transport. Can you drive, could you both drive there, and join them! If this is rejected, go to the HT, if no joy, LEA.

Nursery age ratio in a pvi nursery is 1:8 but if there is a teacher in charge (as there will be in mainstream schools) then the ratio is correct at 1:13

If he already has 1:1 support thru his statement then there is no excuse for trying to exclude him ( not that it should happen anyway).

However, I can't understand why on earth anyone would think it a good idea to take a Nursery class to a theatre to watch a panto !?!? so many children of that age would be overwhelmed / scared / upset, its just a daft thing to try to do anyway.

That said, I would want to have a conversation with SENCO or someone else on senior management team to log the fact that they are unfairly discriminating and that you dont expect it to happen again.

I too feel cross on yours and your Ds's behalf.

My DS1 (eldest of four!) has Downs Syndrome and as we know that there is a vast spectrum of additional needs varying greatly from child to child.
You have the 1:1 support that your DS is entitled to and they should be able to support him in these very situations, so he can experience the same things that school provides to all of the pupils.

My Ds1 is now in year 6 of the same mainstream school that he has been at since he started the pre-school at 3.
He has had the same 1:1 in the mornings throughout and in total three different afternoon 1:1's who each have been with him for about 2/3 years.
He has gone on every trip, including a three day residential that the year group had experienced. We have often had strategic chats about specific situations and in fact the pantomime trip in reception was one of those!!
I knew he would be daunted by the theatre and noise so the 1:1 took my number in her pocket as I knew once he had left the theatre to the lobby there would be no way she'd get him back in to get the my details from the teacher.
The teacher agreed that if this happened she was happy for me to come and collect him. Which is exactly what happened. The next year he coped fine. If you don't give him the opportunity to try he will not have the opportunity to prove his capabilities!!

I would be talking to the SENCO and organising a meeting which you discuss with them that he entitled to the support he needs to access ALL areas of school life.
Personally I think the continuity of the same 1:1, possibly when he in reception one morning and one afternoon so that they have the opportunity to really get to know him and how he learns and what makes him tick! You will also be able to build a relationship with her/him which is so important for continuity of care and education from school to home. Ie. School projects, potty training, need to hand over medical advice ie glasses, appts etc.

My DS has thrived in mainstream and this I believe is due to the brilliant 1:1 staff and good communication between us and school with a shared goal to help him reach his full potential.

Sorry for the essay, I am so cross she was trying to exclude him from the trip, when he has the support in place to help him access it. If it is too scary, so be it, they'll have to take him out. But at least they gave him the opportunity to enjoy the trips with his peer group.

Good luck,

Children cannot be excluded from school trips because of their SN. Whilst the law is not as firm on pre-compulsory education (I'm happy to be corrected on this) the Equality Act still applies.

Think of this as a practice for school. Tell the teacher that you have thought about it, and your DS will be going on the trip. Then ask to see the risk assessment for him.

When he starts reception, don't accept an overly long transition if it is for the school's benefit and not your DS's.

As for the teacher's comments, ask her to email her concerns to you. Or write them up in his IEP. If she refuses to do so, then you know that she is aware that what she is saying is unacceptable- and it certainly is.

I agree that you should ask to see the risk assessment.

He sounds a lovely, happy, friendly little boy, and I hope he gets to go on the trip with the support to which he is entitled.

Hi, Thanks for all the messages, it's been helpful to get benefit of thoughts and experience. I am going to proceed as if he is going on the trip and make an appointment with the Head to discuss the wider issues. I don't expect them to be experts on Down's - I'm not an expert even on 4 year old boys! Do expect a level of professionalism from them though.

There is certainly some resentment about not getting extra staff, and the school performs very well so maybe there is worry about standards slipping too. It's funny because all the local schools are rated outstanding here. Which should be a good thing - hopefully is not counterproductive for DS. This one was actually the friendliest over several visits and phonecalls, so we'll persevere for the time being.
Thanks for input, has helped me to organise my thoughts a bit

I just wanted to say good luck.
The teacher is either anti-inclusion or doesn't understand inclusion, or both. Either way, she needs training.

I used to teach in an inclusive mainstream school. If I couldn't be sure that all children who wanted to were able to participate in a trip / special activity, then we didn't do it.

Really glad you're going to see the Head Firebell well done.

The issue at the heart of this is that his having Downs is irrelevant really, she doesn't need to be an expert - he is a child the same as every other child in her class, she has to stop seeing the Downs and get to know and work with him as a person first, and see him as one of her group instead of additional to it.

I wouldn't accept this. my dd has Asd and attends mainstream school with one to one. I work full time and start from the perspective that she will of course be included and that the school make staffing arrangements and adjustments to make sure she can. If I think she won't enjoy it or it won't suit then I expect them to make other arrangements for her. I have occasionally kept her home but it was my decision and I would not expect to be out in this situation. Teacher is being unreasonable and is seemingly unaware of her responsibilities. I would go with a letter saying that you would be happy for him to attend the pants and that given the school cannot accommodate you attending that you expect them to make appropriate provision for his 1:1 to attend. then say nothing and wait. they will then need to justify their shit attitude. I think they will in all likelihood realise they cannot and will get on with it. Sorry you are experiencing this crap. It is the last thing you want to be doing.