To detest the idea of prayers being answered?

[rootypig]

My in laws recently had some lovely news - a family member who it was thought would die very soon, of cancer, is in remission. I'm really happy for them (have never met the woman in question, my husband's aunt).

But I can't bear the flood of messages and posts. 'The power of prayer'. 'We're blessed'. 'Faith works miracles'.

My precious aunt died a horrible death from cancer last year and she did NOT die because we didn't pray, or want her to live enough, or because we don't have faith, or she wasn't blessed. She died because she had fucking cancer and noone could do a damn fucking thing about it.

How can people believe in this god, who would pick and choose. How can people believe that they deserve more than others.

I know all my church prayed for my husband when he was ill. Sadly he died but just knowing that everyone was thinking about me helped. I don't belive that prayer can make a difference to life or death. It is what it is and I say that as a Christian. I'm sorry for your your aunt, OP. Minmooch, my husband died of a brain tumour. A horrible cruel illness. My thoughts are with you.

so sorry that you feel this way, some people can be tactless, whether they have faith or none. so sorry for your loss. It still sounds incredibly raw and painful for you.

quite frankly I think it might do them good to be told a few home truths, that God is not a magician to pull rabbits out of hats. this attitude causes so many so much pain. I did find prayer comforting though while sitting by my dad's death bed and afterwards. and it was good to know that people were praying for us at the time.

I think prayer is a wonderful way for people to focus their thoughts on others - what they need, and how they might be feeling. I have no doubt that it has tangible benefit in that sense, not least for the person praying. Though I don't have a religion, it strikes me as a sort of meditation. I know prayer groups that take immense comfort from each other, and are active in their communities.

This - I can barely get the words out. This is not that. People who wear their belief in god like a warm coat, then mock others for feeling the cold.

MrsW that is shocking. Well done for speaking up.

I agree with you, this is not that at all. quite frankly I want to shout at people like that, but until they experience somethingfor themselves they are likely not to listen or proclaim that I have too little faith. I suspect narcisist may apply in some of these cases, misguided or immature in others.

I definitely think you are not being unreasonable to be angry.

Thanks susie
I should definitely not be encouraged to say anything though, oh I would be so horrible.
MN is a wonderful place to vent, isn't it?

Thank you all for understanding.

I think some people can just be very tactless. A few years ago i lost my sister in a major incident.
It really got to me the people who said things like Everything happens for a reason, and god gas a plan'
What got me even more was the people who survived it telling me that god must have been looking out for them ect. I know they didn't mean any harm, but it hurt just the same

Rootypig - I totally understand where you are coming from and I am very sorry to hear about your Aunt. I had a post recently on FB from a (very religious) friend saying that she had a near miss being run over at a zebra crossing and that angels (yes - she posted a picture of one!) must have been looking after her. And I thought - what the fuck!? Like anyone who has accidentally been run over didn't have an "angel" looking after them? Like no-one who is religious cannot have a bit of good or bad luck?!?

I understand that people have different beliefs, and that prayer is a useful tool or outlet for some people, but I cannot understand how anyone can believe that if they prayed hard enough that one person (or thousands!) would be spared and others wouldn't. Your relatives probably don't think that either. I imagine it is just a bit of small talk that people just trot out in different situations - if you actually quizzed them further I doubt they would agree that your Aunt deserved to suffer or hadn't been prayed for enough.

I personally like your NYT link, but I don't think it would go down well with your relatives and would cause more problems. Breathe deeply and disagree privately. It sounds like the dignified response that your much loved aunt would have provided.

I share your anger. If there was truly a god who picked people to save on this basis, it would be a terrible, evil god and I would fight it all the way. I don't believe there is any such being. I still feel anger at death, and I know this is stupid and irrational!

What a horrible experience MrsWolowitz, good on you and your sister for speaking up, hopefully you made her think about this and never come out with that kind of rubbish again. rootypig I think the ugly side of this kind of thinking is victim blaming, I think it's often driven through fear and the idea that if you convince yourself that the bad things only happen to people who didn't believe enough, pray hard enough etc. then you can stay safe and smug. I'm sorry this has been so upsetting for you, I can understand why it's so hurtful.

I hate it too. Why the fuck does God pick and choose, if he's real? My sister's 5yo has acute lymphoblastic leukaemia- a little girl a year younger died recently, from the same ward, also with ALL. Why, to God, is my nephew more important than her? Why does he live and she die? And if he does die, why does God make miracles and save other children and other people- are they more worthy? Does God love them more? Did the little girl not deserve to live just as much as him or any other child? If you have the power to save someone, you save everyone, IMO. I don't believe in God any more, but if He is real, then either he isn't all powerful or he isn't all good.

I am sorry for your loss

I think I can understand what you mean. I am an atheist but have a live and let live attitude 99% of the time. I was fairly irritated to hear an American ebola surviver commenting on her belief in the power of prayer for her survival. Not modern science or the availability of advanced western health care. Prayer. Obviously those who don't survive haven't prayed hard enough??

I do know that she won't have meant this - it is easy to rationalise this in reference to world event. If it was my family I would be deeply wounded by the suggestion of just not trying hard enough

Sounds like it touched a nerve. I remember after my dad had died from cancer, MIL and others were talking about cancer in general and people they'd known who'd died from it (not my dad). They went over how you had to be strong and willing to fight for it, you can bet that touched a nerve! My dad didn't die because he was weak or 'didn't want it enough', he died because he was already stage 3 when they found it and there was nothing anyone could do to save him. People talk utter rubbish sometimes, I guess it makes them feel better or safer, or it's just the generally accepted thing to say, but that doesn't mean it isn't thoughtless.

Some people treat God as though He's their personal genie or something

This is what turned me into a non believer aged 7. A girl in my year had lukemia, and we were told to pray for her so i did. After all we'd been told over and over again that god listens and answers prayers. Well he doesnt. She died aged 6 1/2.

It does seem incredibly egotistical to think that a God would answer prayers from pampered western folk whilst totally ignoring the desperate plight of people in developing countries who haven't even got clean water or enough food.

I'm sure people who are trafficked, raped, tortured, starved and enslaved also offer up desperate prayers only to have them ignored as well.

Dizzy that's familiar. My husband - who has never once asked about my aunt, or my grief - responded to the news of a friend's father's cancer with a comment about how he had the right mindset to get through it, just so positive. That broke my heart.

My aunt left behind a fourteen year old daughter, and two sons only just beginning their adult lives. A partner she adored. How much did she want to live? how much? more than she could bear.

Cooroo that's it. Who would WANT to worship such a hateful god?

cheesecake it's more than that (though of course you can still disagree with me). It's like their god is only for them, and only for the good times. It's as though their god has nothing better to do than to think about them. I can't explain it better than I have.... I know and like people who are religious, who would praise god for many things.

I am so sorry for everyone else's losses. Shlep, here's hoping your nephew makes it through

ouch Dizzy. bet that hurt. so sorry for your loss.

It hurts doesn't it? But the thing is these are 'tried and tested' things to say in every day conversation, people say them without thinking. I have this idea that there are certain beliefs or ideas that come with a 'socially accepted' stamp, that you can trot out so it looks like you're adding to the conversation without having to do really much thinking. Because when you really do think about it, who really agrees that all the people who survive are those that wanted it enough, and those that don't the ones that didn't?

I can't even read all of the posts on this thread, started to but some things are too raw and it hurts too much hearing the experiences of others who've gone through similar.

Rootypig sorry to hear about your Aunt. I thought you made a great post there about prayer being a connection with others and God. Christians believe God cares about us, but not that He will remove all suffering.
In the book of Job is some helpful stuff about not blaming someone's suffering on them or lack of faith. God berated Job's counsellors for saying such things to him.

Sorry for your loss, OP (and all of the rest of us who have lost dear ones too). I hate the power of prayer thing too (and I am a practicing catholic).

If there is a god and he responds to some prayers and not to others then I want nothing to do with him.

The "Fight Cancer" thing drives me nuts too- as if those who died didn't fight hard enough.

The narcissistic thing isn't as far-fetched as it seems. My mother was highly narcissistic in many ways (also lovely generous kind funny but she did love to have the world revolve around herself) and she would often say "oh I will pray for you" if someone had problems or "I prayed so hard for you no wonder you had a good result" if things went well. I always felt it was a way to have the other person's misfortune or bad health go back to being about her (her other gifts made this something we just put up with).

To be honest the words "Thank God" also drive me nuts - generally there are a lot of other people to thank for whatever happened before you get to God.

It's all bunkum. Sorry for your loss.

I think you have explained it well. though I suppose I have come across people like that.

different people react in different ways to tragedy, based I suppose on their beliefs/personality/previous life experiences. people see things in different ways. whereas one will want to worship despite tragedy, seeing god as someone/thing to help them through, others will see it as a reason that he does not exist. not sure that either can be proved right.