AIBU re cleaning the office at my work place??

[SuperFlyHigh]

At work we recently got rid of our cleaners, they weren't cleaning well (mess left, didn't come in several times, no excuses) and despite warning them through the company who employed them several times it didn't get any better. We were then told by the cleaning company that the cleaners weren't happy with us criticising them but then the cleaners came to us separately after this to try to get us to employ them not through the company, so i don't know what happened there.

My boss then interviewed a couple of cleaners and through a colleague found someone who now comes in twice a month (eg every fortnight). We did have cleaners before every other day, at least 3 x a week for about 5 years.

In the interim period when we had no cleaners I emptied bins, food bin etc and cleaned generally (not hoovering) as we were asked to help out then. I had thought we would have a cleaner at least once a week but turns out no.

I am now not happy as I know (out of staff of 5 people) it'll be me who ends up wiping kitchen surfaces, emptying bins etc and it's not on. Already the reception area where I sit, kitchen, and toilets are starting to get dirty and I don't see why I should wipe toilet seats etc... I did begrudgingly get some toilet cleaner (none in cleaner's cupboard) and toilet wipes and kitchen wipes but I don't want to use them!

When I mentioned I wasn't happy and what was happening with the cleaners the other day my boss said "you'll have to clean, empty bins etc...". I am beyond mad at this...

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I'm really pissed off and I am not a cleaner, I'm a legal secretary/PA! I know my boss wants to save on cleaners but he was paying £120 per month anyway before with the other cleaners for 5 years!

Absolutely not, of course it's not your job and in now way reasonable to accept it. You are not expected to do "anything"- no one is.

You're not employed to clean up after all people. That's shocking and you should never have done any of it.

Make this a lesson learned, too. When and if something like this happens again, don't fucking mention it or buy cleaning stuff or FA.

What carlson said.

Also, if he asks you to do it, ideally use the 'no is a complete sentence' strategy, failing that tell him what your hourly rate would be for cleaning. £100 per hour, paid in advance?

Am I the only person who wouldn't care? Myself and colleagues have had to do things like put down salt aand grit, move dead birds, unblock a drain, clean a forgotten fridge etc none of which are even close to my job description. I/we get a risk assessment, suitable clothes gloves etc and slowly go about the task. Then when I don't finish my actual job I just mention how long extra task x took me. It would prob be cheaper to pay a contractor as they would work faster!

I would care because if I wanted to be a cleaner, I'd be one. I don't care to clean toilets, so trained to do accountancy and bookkeeping. When hired in the role, I don't care to clean the office, too.

I think it's a cheek but I've no idea of the legalities of it. I just want to sympathise. Even if an employer is in the wrong, it's a very big thing to challenge them, especially in a small firm.

Like others have said, just keep your own area clean, wipe the loo seat and never use the fridge or microwave. Cock a deaf ear and watch the clutter build up.

When we met, DH was working for someone who sounds very much like your boss. All the staff, except the boss, took turns to clean up because he was too tight to employ cleaners and they didn't feel able to complain.

This was despite the boss having a very good income and having no qualms about spending lavishly on himself. He sometimes treated the staff and their partners to dinner in expensive restaurants but that wasn't really a treat, it was because he had no social skills and so bought the company he kept. The dinners were command performances. No one felt able to refuse. All the partners would sit over dinner glowering at him but we couldn't say anything because that would have made it worse for our partners.

There were two loos in this place and he used to use the one designated for the women because he said it was cleaner. He'd sometimes leave it in an awful mess which the two women who worked there had to clean up.

Tightness wasn't the only reason. He wanted to humiliate people. I'm not saying that being expected to clean is humiliating. But being expected to clean up after someone else is.

Terrible bully.

Stop doing it. He can expect whatever he wants; you're not obligated to fulfil that expectation. Just stand up for yourself and stop enabling him. You know very well you can't be disciplined or fired for this.

If the office gets vermin then it's his job to sort it out.

Is it THAT hard to be a little bit assertive?

don't worry I am NOT doing it!

carlson - yes exactly I am NOT a bloody cleaner didn't train to be one and if I wanted to be one I'd do it... I even jokingly said to a colleague if my boss gave me XXX amount of £££ I'd clean but really I do not WANT to do it!

limited so fucking what if i challenge this in a small firm?! I'm not making a major stand but why should I do it? H&S surely come into play etc... My boss is a major piss taker and he loves now that he's saving a bit of money...he probably also loves the fact that everyone else bar him would have to clean. In fact it was a laugh him holding the ladder for a colleague yesterday who changed a lightbulb in the bathroom area. I'm not doing that either.

limited so fucking what if i challenge this in a small firm?!

SuperFlyHigh Ouch! That hurt. I was supporting you there. Didn't you notice. In fact your post confirms everything I suspected about your boss.

I'm not the enemy. Your boss is.

sorry limited I'm just mad about work generally and this is the icing on the cake. This is just one more thing where i feel ready to leave at any second.

I am just beyond mad about this and its a small firm and I have to be careful in case I do make waves...

thanks for your advice.

I used to work somewhere where we all signed-up once a month to wipe the services and empty the clean dishwasher and set it to go at the end of the day (everyone was meant to load their own stuff). They still employed cleaners, though.

Don't worry. It's hard.

Keep on keeping on.

I wouldn't say anything to your boss about the fact that it's not your job or in your contract to clean. Just don't do anything (apart from your own washing up/bin emptying) and act as if you haven't noticed the mess. Leave it to your boss to notice that cleaners are required. That is what I would be doing in your situation and it is probably what your co workers are doing.

I'd be inclined to neglect some of my contracted work and when your boss notices make sure and say you've had to allocate some of your previous time to cleaning and you know, there's only so many hours in the day hoho.

See how he bloody likes that.

whatever - that's the thing (and maybe what I forgot to mention, no I did mention it...) - when I discovered this week when the new cleaner was coming in I said "what do we do in the meantime when the cleaner isn't here" Boss' response "sort out the cleaning yourselves...., empty the bins between you"

Maybe he does mean that to be us emptying our own bins... but what do we do re kitchen bin (which is already full) and bathroom bin (sanitary products etc)? I can't leave that, it then overflows and then someone (likely me) will end up tidying it up. Already boxes have built up (from stationery orders) that are empty, I've left those... but they need to be dumped. I will leave them though as not unhygienic. I'm more concerned re mould, those crawly things in bins etc... than general cleanliness of the office.

weeblueberry yeah that has crossed my mind too to do that.

that and to dump a huge rat in his office (dead of course) and I'm joking mind...!

whatever - that's the thing (and maybe what I forgot to mention, no I did mention it...) - when I discovered this week when the new cleaner was coming in I said "what do we do in the meantime when the cleaner isn't here" Boss' response "sort out the cleaning yourselves...., empty the bins between you"

Don't ask what you should do when the cleaner isn't here though as that makes it seem that you have an interest in keeping the place clean and your boss will take advantage of that. Just empty your own bin and maybe the bathroom bin (if only you and one co worker are using it). The rest should be left until even your boss notices.

I own a large commercial cleaning business.

Firstly he was not paying 120 pcm. No way. As you say cleaners, not cleaner let me make the assumption there were 2. I will also assume they did 2 hours each, a total of 4 hours labour a session.

That would set you back 620 pcm (outside London), not 120.

Secondly if a contract ends and you take the service "in house" or employ another firm it is a TUPE situation and the cleaners' employment rights should have been preserved. The cleaners now have grounds to take your boss/the incoming firm to tribunal as long as it is less than 3 months when they were sacked. TUPE 2014 allows them to claim a minimum of 500 each and up to 13 weeks pay. Even if they were crap at their job, I do not make the law and am merely regurgitating it.

So have you had the appropriate H&S training in the safe use of chemicals and correct use of PPE? Probably not. Does he has liability insurance to cover you carrying out this role? Doubt it. Has a risk assessment been done on the site. Have you been given safety data sheets and first aid training for using these chemicals?

If the answer to all of that is no you are well within your rights to refuse to do it.

raltheraffe - ok I just checked the invoice it was actually £130 pcm i can scan and email to you if you like?!

It was 1 cleaner for about 1 hour each time and every other day - I'd guess maybe 3-4 times a week.

why are you going on about TUPE etc?! My boss was about to terminate the contract mostly on the basis they were bad cleaners and had been given the chance to clean better. When he criticised the cleaners he was told by the company that they'd refused to work for him anymore, were insulted and that the company was cancelling our contract. Then another member of staff got a letter from the cleaners offering their services privately, my boss refused that offer. Also my boss is a solicitor. So I have no idea where you are getting this tribunal stuff from!

H&S training re chemicals - NO - do we need it or want it, not my boss, did the other cleaners have it, highly doubtful.

what happened (security risk) is there were 2 cleaners, man and woman - they were partners we were told. they came on alternate days but never together. they didn't inform us of this and my boss when he found it (some of us work late) it could be a security risk as we didn't know the partner (a man).

also finally my boss does like to get things for cheap and if you pay cheap prices you can get this... it's not some huge commercial firm he used...

the woman who comes now it's cash only basis.

I think raltheraffe was trying to help, SuperFly, from the standpoint of someone who knows about commercial cleaning.

The 'security risk' thing is downright odd. Your Boss seems determined to find excuses as to why he can't get an adequate cleaning service in place.

Leopard but it's not a strict commercial cleaning contract...

we're in a small solicitors office. there's not a huge amount of staff or office space.

My boss would never pay for an adequate cleaning service as he's too tight.

strange this is he used to run a huge practice employing 150 staff in West London and they must have had a commercial cleaning practice but before my time and as I understand it he left that to his PA or office manager if there was one.

raltheraffe I am sure you were trying to help and thanks but it's seriously not a commercial cleaning contract!

But thanks for your pointers on everything. interesting.

So lets say 3 hours labour per week, that would equate to exactly £10 an hour which is a good price.
TUPE applies irrespective of who cancelled the contract and why. It also does not matter if the standard of cleaning was poor. FWIW I find this particular law very frustrating and have spent today consulting with a solicitor and my HR specialist on it. I was very clear to state that I did not make this law and was merely quoting it so there is no need to get sarcastic with me.
Most contract firms perform risk assessments, H&S training, have safety data sheets on site in case of accidents and have the correct insurance. If your boss has chosen to go with a company that has not done this then more fool him.
I very much doubt that both the man and woman were employed by the company. One of them was and one was the OH. I have had on occasion an employee failing to turn in and instead sending their OH. It is unacceptable and I have a clause in the contracts clearly stating this.
I would not expect any of my employees to work without the correct training, insurance and access to safety data sheets. H&S at work is a serious issue when things go wrong and accidents happen.
I would refuse to do any cleaning unless the appropriate H&S measures have been put in place. It sounds like a low risk job cleaning but without the correct training a risk exists and it would be very foolish to do this.