to back up my DD in no longer wishing to see her father?

[CloudiaPickle]

DD is 8. I'll openly admit I dislike her father immensely - he was abusive to me and IMHO is to DD, too. However, I have done my utmost to encourage a relationship for DDs sake. When she was a toddler he'd ignore routine, put her back in nappies once trained, tell her off for being upset at going with him etc.

Now she's older he'll make and break promises continuously. He won't let her talk about her home life and says things to purposely try and upset her; like: Mummy sends you to me because she doesn't want you/loves your siblings more etc. He won't let her do hobbies or any social activities on 'his' weekends but then does his hobby/goes out leaving her doing nothing but watching tv all weekend.

He hasn't seen her for a month now because he missed contact for a holiday and didn't bother to rearrange it. He hasn't called or even sent a text message to ask how she is.

She knows about the court and cafcass process because DH has been through it recently with her step siblings and she's asked that we go down that route so she can express her wishes about contact. She wants to see her father and his family occasionally she says, but mostly she feels every other weekend contact is a 'waste of her life' and she wants to stay at home.

I've tried everything to involve him in her life and encourage him to do better by her but he continues to treat her like a possession he has a right to, rather than his child whom he loves. AIBU if I follow DDs wishes here and let it go to court?

Contact for whose benefit, it seems judges want to please the father whoever violent or abusive he is, to tge detriment of the child. Op don't force anymore contact, your dd does not deserve this. Mabey you need counselling to help you move forward and help you cut his hold over you.

I really think you should stop contact. I would also talk to the GP so they know what is going on and ask about counselling as the decision to distance herself from her dad will be tough even though it's for the best and she will probably feel confused/guilty/hurt and talking it through will help.
If he decides to get legal advice it will take a bit of time which will give her breathing space and may help her think about what contact she would like (if any) while she is away from any pressure from him.
As you have said it's likely at the most he would only get the same contact he has now so it's not going to be worse and if there has been little contact meantime and your daughter has spoken to professionals as part of the court process contact may be reduced or changed place.
I'd also suggest she keeps a diary of her feelings- even if it's just a word a day and even if she doesn't share it with anyone it will help her process things. And it might help her share in the future.

Poor your dd, am saddened by your last post, it's so hard not to be able to protect them.

It seems to me that it's all about convincing a judge, so putting together as much evidence as possible to support your/dd's case.

Just as a matter of interest (relevant for me & probably lots of people?)... If a woman discloses things in councelling, would that be able to be taken as evidence in a court case? Eg She tells councellor h raped her repeatedly (& has since been arrested for rape of someone else but lack of evidence meant cps didn't prosecute)... & that although the child wasnt subject to direct violence, the child would be scared & hide in the bedroom with his mummy. Would any of that be admissible? Or not counting as evidence? Because not directed at the child? Or because councelling not a good source of evidence?

What can I/others do now to create better forms of evidence, for me at the stage of after he's gone but before he takes me to court for access?

Sorry hope I haven't diverted thread - I thought perhaps understanding evidence in general might help as its so important. Please ignore if not useful for you OP

From many cases discussed here on MN it seems very unlikely that your dds wishes and preferences will have any bearing - children older than her are compelled to go to contact by courts willing or not, and there's the 'parental alienation' fashion of the moment that children who are 'alienated' from one parent needs to spend more time with them not less to overcome this, and it's the fault of the parent the child says they prefer rather than the fault or actions of the parent the child reports being unhappy with.

Letting this get to court is going to involve a definite possibility of your and your dds situation getting worse, not better. I would let ex opt out as much as he wants and leave it informal, and hope he loses interest. And support dd as much as possible in the meantime. I really wonder if in ten years or so when these children forced to go to contact 'in their best interest' are old enough, whether they agree 'low level abuse' was better than not having a relationship with the NRP.

Rumble this us exactly what's happening to my friend at the moment. Her dd wishes are being ridden roughshod by the judge.

I know that's common, rumble, which is why I've tried to avoid court so far. However, the wishes and feelings of my DSC have been really taken into consideration by the judge even though they have much less foundation. I.e. They said they want to always spend Christmas and birthdays with mum because she buys them more stuff. The judge agreed they should even though DH has never had a Christmas or birthday with them! Therefore I'd hope that if DD says she hates going because he lies and badmouthing constantly that the judge would understand that.

Your daughter needs you to be her advocate. She doesn't want to tell her father that she doesn't want to see him herself, nor does she want you to tell him she doesn't want to see him. She is looking for a solution that will solve the problem without her having to be 'involved'. And, bless her, I completely understand. See a solicitor specializing in child access or custody. Write everything down and lay it out for them. What your daughter wants, what her father does and the current pattern of his contact, and what you want at the end of the day. They will be in a better position to advise you as to what to expect if you are taken to court. Then make a decision based on what you are told and what you know of her father. I don't think you can expect, based on what you have said, that a judge will deny him access. This may be a situation where you can make things better for her, or unfortunately, you will have to tell your daughter that your hands are tied.

I agree with a pp who said to do nothing to facilitate contact. Don't take her to him, don't call him and ask about his plans. As much as possible, make plans for her (clubs, parties, activities) without regards to him. Then you can at least say she is legitimately busy if he calls at the last minute.

X post. That's what I get for taking so long!

Interesting about the DSC. Is there any way you could talk to their mother in confidence? If nothing else, possibly get the name of her solicitor since he/she would be familiar with your ex and already have information on him that may be favorable to your daughter?

how awful, I think you should back your dd all the way

and there's the 'parental alienation' fashion of the moment that children who are 'alienated' from one parent needs to spend more time with them not less oh dear lord.

Zevite it's totally true, and the way a lot of judges think, especially in the case of my friend.

Please please take rumbles advice of doing this informally. Leave it to him and do nothing. At the moment he is not interested, do nothing and hope it fizzles out, if he wants to go through courts let him. Why complicate things!

Miscellaneous - judges won't usually look at what a man is like as a person and what they have done to others including the mother. They tend to look at what a man has been like as a father and ignore all the other stuff. It really depends on which judge it is though.

I think limited supervised contact is the only solution in cases of low-level abuse. Unsupervised contact with an abuser is much, much worse than no contact, in my opinion. The courts don't agree with this though.

Cloudia, my ex is similar to your ex in some ways, probably not as extreme though. I don't allow him to have unsupervised contact. We have never been through the courts luckily. I allow him into my house to see dd when he wants to, which luckily isn't that much. I wouldn't say it's been a bed of roses, but better than any other alternative. I hope you find a solution.

If I reduce it from eow, he will take me to court. He will only miss contact for his holidays, otherwise he collects her eow like clockwork - even if that's just for her to watch tv alone at his all weekend. She has said many times that she feels the only reason he has her is to keep her away from me. Which sadly is quite probably true.

Just leave it to him, hopefully as she gets older she will be old enough to refuse contact. Yes it probably is true, my friends abusive ex only has contact eow like clockwork to het at her, and not because he wants to spend time with her. Happy it does depend on the judge, my friend gas a wanker of a judge who totally ignores evidence of abuse and that he's a poor father, in favour of contact.

the court is unlikely to deviate far from e/o w/e contact. We are talking about 4 days a month, which isn't a great deal to begin with and most courts will be reluctant to minimise contact between her and her father at this stage in her life - they are likely to reason that she is currently too young to understand all the implications of such a momentous choice. I am deeply sympathetic to you and your dd but your legal case isn't great tbh. I also think you need to tread very carefully because you don't want her to reach adulthood and then feel that you did not really support her relationship with her father. On the other hand, I'm sure that watching her misery is difficult for you and you feel that you have to be twice the parent in making up for his uselessness.
Legally, I would advise that you are in with a much better chance if you try to minimise the amount of time she spends with him by suggesting that since he spends a fair amount of time she's round doing his activities then why doesn't she go round for a shorter duration when he's actually free instead?
if it does go to court then so much of this would depend on the judge - and they do vary. Cafcass will investigate but even if they listen to what your dd is saying I think that they are more likely to focus on improving the relationship rather than restricting it. sometimes just being under the scrutiny of the court can kick feckless parents into touch - as can a Cafcass report giving the child a voice which is more difficult to ignore.
hope this helps and good luck!

There is no doubt op is tring to support this relationship with her father, and so far has bent over backwards to do so. He also has to ake responsibility too, be a responsible and loving father. At 8 she is not silly, she Can already see him for the man he is, sounds very clued up. Cafcass don't always act professionally and appropriately, in my friends case tgey has been bloody awful and at times downright dangerous.

If you think he's having her to spite you, maybe try to hide showing any distress or negative feelings from him. Maybe subtly indicate to him that you are enjoying the 'me time' and have plans to go out? Do you think if he feels it doesn't bother you he may stop being so insistent? Is there any way you can make the time less pleasant for him without impacting your DD? Is there an activity she would be interested in that he would have to take her to? Dance, gymnastics, playdates?

BFF's ex was this way, although their DS was just a toddler. She stopped sending food, diapers, clothing, etc along with him. He lost interest in access when he realized how much work and ££ a toddler was! Not quite as easy to do with an 8 year old, but hopefully you'll be able to think of something!

It doesn't bother me as such, Across.II'd love nothing more than for her to have a decent relationship with him and be secure in both homes. I'm home anyway with her siblings so he knows he's keeping her away from her family, which he emphasizes to her. He wont take her to any parties or activities, meaning she can't pursue the activities she's talented at. He literally gets her then palms her off with his parents (who think the sun shines out of his backside) or with the tv, despite having promised amazing trips.

What a prick. I think most mothers are like you, they want their DCs to have a good relationship with their fathers. I think it's a shame when the fathers just can't seem to understand that they are hurting their children just to spite their mother. Vv sad. And I suppose the grandparents are also a lost cause.

It's a shame that she's having to deal with this, especially since there is no easy answer. But in the long run she will be OK because she has you to help her understand and cope with it. It's too bad her father doesn't understand that he is only damaging HIS relationship with her, not yours!

Well in the future when she's older than she won't have to go. I wish he would do her a favour and stay away if he is going to be a shoddy dad.