to think it's OK not to wear a poppy?

[PieceOfResistance]

I think it's pretty frowned on in some quarters if you don't wear one.

I'm fully in favour of remembrance day in its initial peace-promoting purpose, and of commemorating all the thousands of people who lost their lives.

But I worry that poppy day sometimes serves to glorify war, and to raise a kind of patriotism which, to my mind, is definitely not entirely positive.

Aren't people bored of this now? It's always a topic of conversation on MN, but this year it's ridiculous.

It is fine not to wear a poppy. What it is not fine is to say it glorifies war, is political, or your are forced to wear one, because that's all untrue.

sickntiredtoo I back you up on that.

I dont wear a poppy because I feel they symbolise more than remembering those lost in the world wars - they symbolise all British wars, the British army and the establishment, in a way that doesn't sit comfortably with me.

My family are Irish Catholics and the poppy isnt worn by many in the north of Ireland for the above reasons.

However, I do observe the remembrance silence and am respectful towards the concept of remembering lives lost through war.

Odd to see such absolute certainty here about what things represent (I'd always consider it at the very least debatable), and about "right" and "wrong" behaviour.
I suppose on some levels it must be reassuring to live in such a world.

Can I just point out that it's not 'thousands' it's over 1 million military deaths in Britain (and British territories) alone. If you count the allies together (which surely we must) it was 12,000,000 in WW2 alone.

We're busy fighting about whether it's right to wear a piece of paper on a plastic stem, while they were fighting for their lives and our freedom? Seriously? It's one of the most shameful things I've ever seen.

Have some flipping respect! Either go to the services and wear a poppy, or don't go.

Those who say they don't believe in war probably aren't remembering that they have the good fortune to be part of a strong nation. Say it again when your children are being gassed or bombs are dropping on your house. See if you want someone to fight for your freedom then.

*PieceOfResistance" - I'm not sure I understand your last post.
You commented in your OP that you "worry" that poppies "sometimes" glorify war.
Other posters are generally replying that, so far as we are concerned, they certainly don't.
I'm not sure why you think that makes us have 'absolute certainty' - we each know what we and what those we talk to, think about poppies. And the bulk of replies certainly says that most people don't feel they glorify war.

Feel free to worry that they do, and feel free to choose not to wear one. But please accept that the vast majority of those who do wear them have not the slightest intention of glorifying war by their action. We are simply showing our Remembrance of those who died or were injured, the same as people have done for the last hundred years.

AMum, I didn't think your post was particularly certain, no.

In other posts, the following phrases, combined with some rather aggressive responses to my (nonagressive, I think) post, confused me.

I'm sick hearing the complete bollocks that poppies/poppy day glorify war!
Poppies do not glorify war
Poppies are not glorifying war they are the diametric opposite.

I think there are good arguments that some of the manifestatitons of poppy day promote patriotism.

I have never argued against remembrance in itself, and certainly not its peaceful message.

YABU to call it poppy day.

Happily, in the uk I am allowed to be certain or ambivalent about the symbolism of poppies, as are you. We are both free to decide whether we wish to wear them.

If your employer is forcing you to wear a poppy against your wishes, you can take them to a tribunal.

I am certain that this isn't the case all over the world.

Of course it's ok not to wear one. I never do, and would take an extremely dim view of anyone who felt the need to lecture me on my empty lapel.

You don't have to buy/wear a poppy to show respect.
There are many ways of respecting and supporting local charities that serve the needs of returning soldiers and their families.
You can donate all year round and actually see the end result from stories in your local papers.

What can be wrong about showing respect by wearing a poppy? The wars happened and nothing will change that and if it gives servicemen and women a boost by showing them we care what's the problem? This is such an unnecessary thing to discuss - show respect or don't. Your choice - which they fought for.

I know this isn't the point the op is making but I do think there's a feeling of no poppy= no respect for war dead, this is what the post above seems to say to me.

Can I just point out that it's not 'thousands' it's over 1 million military deaths in Britain (and British territories) alone. If you count the allies together (which surely we must) it was 12,000,000 in WW2 alone.

I do go to remembrance services (although don't usually wear a poppy) I think about ALL the lives lost not just British/allies. War is a tragedy for both sides, this isn't to say I think it's always wrong, but it is always a tragedy.

I don't think poppies glorify war, the only thing I don't like though is the pressure people are put under to wear one.

The original aims of remembrance Sunday were for us to remember the horror of war and the desire of the post-WW1 generation to avoid it. Now it seems more of a celebration - a celebration of military service and worship of those who died. Now it seems to have become a spectacle; something that entertains, something to look at, something to "do" at the weekend. I think we're too far removed from 1914-1918 to really appreciate the huge sense of loss and fear and the unbelievable mourning of hundreds of thousands of families.

But remembrance Sunday does play an important role in raising money for soldiers injured in the course of their duty. In my mind the government should be ashamed for not giving these very brave individuals the support they clearly need and forcing them to rely on charity. It is for that reason that I donate to the British Legion but I do refuse to wear the Poppy.

Basically I'm hugely conflicted.

YANBU to not wear a poppy, it's a choice. If you think it glorifies war then don't wear it.

Poppies are a representation of the Flanders fields poem and a symbol of remembrance for that reason. IMO it doesn't glorify war.

For most people, probably, red poppies do not glorify war. For some (Britain First is one of the worst culprits IMHO) they do, and remembering the victims of war becomes nationalistic and deeply suspect. But that's their problem. There's also the 'poppy facism' thing - virtually compulsory if you're a tv presenter (unless you're Jon Snow!) and the vitriol poured on that poor young woman who had bought a poppy and donated many times and had an ex-services parent, but decided she could not appear to support one charity over another whilst being on the telly.

I've never heard any complaints about my not wearing one. Never worn one myself. I grew up in a family which had the opinion that no-one should be reliant on charity, particularly those who suffered doing their duty, whether they're soldiers, medical staff, reporters or coal miners who didn't go to war. If I did wear a poppy it wouldn't be 'with pride' for there's nothing to be proud of if a veteran had to rely on charity. It would be 'with sadness' that lives were lost. Having said that I have donated money without accepting the poppy.

I'd happily pay a bit more in taxes if everyone who needed help got it without needing charity. Or we could stop paying out billions to go to war in the first place.

I wonder if the tone of the day will change in fifteen years or so when the WW2 veterans are dead? I think it is important that both world wars are taught in history lessons but it is now history.

To me its the same as being a Christian or any other religion, you don't have to go to church to believe.

Just the same you don't have to wear a poppy to remember those who died for us, likewise whilst its nice we have a particular date to all come together on mass to remember, you can choose to remember whenever you like.
Walking past a cenotaph, watching documentaries, talking to people who lived through the second world war and subsequent wars.
Visiting local charities and hearing talks from war widows and their children, reading reports in local newspapers.
Its there all year round not just remembrance day.

I spent Saturday transcribing a sizeable collection of barely legible letters written by my great uncle who died on the Somme, aged 24. I personally feel that poppies have come to represent support for British wars including the more recent wars rather than a warning against the horror of war and a remembrance of those who died in their millions, which is a problem for me. I fudge the issue by buying poppies and leaving them on the kitchen table unworn. That doesn't mean I don't think about those who died - on both sides - but it equally signifies to me in my small way that I'm not applauding the more recent much more dubious wars.

They glorify war Yes because poppies are so glamourous?

What utter rot and nonsense. How is remembering the dead glorifying war, how is the thousands of poppies at the tower of London, each one a lost and stolen life, each one leaving a devastated family. A mother without a son, a wife without a husband, children without a father.

Sorry op, not a good topic, but you do sound very young and naive.

Ok ZeVite I can read absolutely clearly in the family letters just how devastating the loss was, and I well remember how keenly the loss was still felt when I was a child, amongst the older members of the family. These letters are very immediate and convey the pain very readily. Nevertheless I do feel the poppies have confused support for all wars including the most recent with remembrance of the two World Wars, which I can't help but feel is wrong, and I'm neither young nor naïve. Perhaps the term 'glorifying' is wrong. Perhaps 'support' would be better. But either way, the initial purpose has been distorted, and that's wrong.

On a personal note, as a teen/young twenty-something, remembrance Sunday/ 11.11.14 was observed but I didn't feel a massive sense of occasion. Perhaps, in part, because my dad is very knowledgeable about the war and I used to hear so much about it that I switched off a bit.

Now that my children are old enough to understand a little more (8,7,5) I feel a great need for them to understand that life was not easy then and great sacrifices were made to secure the freedom of thought and practice in countries weaker than ours, but ultimately for us all. Hitler would have stopped at nothing short of world domination if he had gone unchecked.

So I am conflicted, also:

-in one sense, I feel that the sacrifices made were beyond understanding. I can't imagine a declaration of war and my husband then going. I can't imagine sending my children far away. I can't imagine rationing; for years.

-on the other hand, I recognise the rank hypocrisy of being grateful that people sacrificed for our freedoms and then demanding that people wear a poppy -the whole point is that we are free to choose.

-Thirdly, I remain incredulous that people who have the luxury of freedoms only dreamed of by those in the war, can claim to be 'against war'. I hold the view that they are against war when the victims are 'other' and would accept it well enough if it was needed to protect us.

Plenty of people who claim to be 'against war' also want "Jihadi John" caught and dealt with. They want military action taken to 'sort it out' and in all but name, they want war on ISIS.

Finally, the day that a generation forgets tomorrow is a truly frightening day, because when they've forgotten the wars that have been, they will be less opposed to a war if the future. That war is widely recognised to be one where there will be no winners because we'll all be nuked to dust.

Of course it's okay. Just as it's okay to wear one, too.

You need to have the courage of your convictions. What an odd post from, presumably, an adult.

I once had someone in England tell me I was basically an enemy of the state, and laughing at people who "died for freedom". Like the freedom not to wear a poppy, for example?
It's not really done in my country, for many reasons, and I don't get this need for other people to care if anyone else wears one. Surely it should be an individual thing?

Well, I personally think there's a pretty complicated set of issues here (interesting posts, by the way, Molio, Alyosha and alsmutko), and that Remembrance has many facets. Some (though by no means all) of which promote approaches to the world which foster patriotism/national "pride" and combat.

I'll leave it there, but for those who don't think it's worthy of discussion by adults, here are a couple of links indicating that real grown-ups do think about these things:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/25/poppy-remembrance-peace-glorify-war

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/6544516/Britains-last-First-World-War-veteran-shuns-Remembrance-Day.html