AIBU to think we cannot possibly know natural gender differences.

[goodnessgracious]

Yesterday I overheard this;

A little boy who was approximately 2 years old was in a toy shop and was desperate for his parents to buy him a baby doll. Father responded to his pleas repeatedly with "they're for girls, put it back" He used a derogative tone each time he said the word "girls". He then said "what are you, gay?"

Co-incidentally the BBC news this morning had an article about how few girls go into science and those that do tend to go into to caring roles etc. The normal gender/work issues.

Taking aside the fact that the gay comment was totally appauling, AIBU to think that we cannot possible truly understand natural gender differences when parents raise children in this way.

HA! Nicely played, Goodnessgracious!

fromparistolondon
*its got fuck all to do with gender- lets not even GO there

you just happended to overhear an ignorant twattish dick wad!

BTW for the gender nature n nurture debate- this is sad little tale
www.isna.org/faq/reimer*

You are confusing sexuality with gender opportunity in regard to work, sports, expectations in behaviour etc.

From my very small sample of boys (my ds and friend's ds) I have found that both of them liked pink things when they were toddlers, but as they got older and went to school they started to reject them saying they were for girls. I have in no way reinforced this, in fact have told my ds it's a load of bollocks, but the damage is done. When I was a child I liked action men, barbies, dolls, guns, toy kitchens etc ( I'm female). I don't think you can really extrapolate much from a sample of 3 children, but I don't think it does boys or girls any favours to try and put them in such narrow boxes, or to not challenge it when it occurs.

camping yep, I've heard similar comments. It's hard to know what's worse the appaling sexist language or the "facking shut up you brat" comments .

Parents are to blame though.

My Ds's play football on a Saturday morning, there is one girl there and around 80 boys aged 5-8.

Quite often the boys have sisters there watching, bored on the sidelines, why? Do none of these girls want to play? Maybe some genuinely don't want to play but all of them?

The gender roles are reversed at ballet.

I am sure someone will come on here telling me about their local girls football team being oversubscribed. But it's not what I see.

In the 70s there were hardly any pink toys. In fact, I purchased my first ever pink item of clothing as a teenager in the 80s. People seem to forget how quickly things have changed.

My DS and DD were raised fairly neutrally, she went to football at 5, but soon gave up when she realised she was the only girl. DS started being attracted to guns and violence the minute he started nursery. DD has always been slightly more adventurous than DS, but I believe that's a personality trait. No doubt if DS was the more adventurous one, it would be because 'he's a boy'

I think anyone who downplays the influence of the world around them (TV, shops softplay, nursery, books, it's endless tbh) is naive at best.

I have 3 dc. Two girls, one boy.

Ds is now 2, and loves cars. Lots of people keep commenting to me that this must be a new experience for me, as he is my only boy. Erm, no. Ds is currently clutching a happy land bus (was dd1's originally, and she still claims it) and a train that was dd2's. No difference between them (only individual personality ones) all - that will come when he goes to school, just as it did for my dds.

Dd2 went to preschool as a loud, rumbunctious, short haired, busy girl. She loved red - clothes, toys, painting etc, everything was red.

Within a term of preschool, she wanted to grow her hair (she got told she must be a boy if it was short), changed her favourite colour to pink to fit in, and wanted to wear only dresses instead of trousers. And that only made things worse, as she was then told to not play outside/get muddy/do messy play as she would get her pretty dress dirty. This carried on despite me repeatedly telling the preschool I didn't care what she came home covered in - clothes are for wearing and playing in, heather theya re dresses or trousers. It was shocking, tbh. The total change that came over her once the outside world had a proper influence.

I expect the same will happen to ds, and he will grow to learn that he 'shouldn't' want pretty hair accessories (can't get him to put down sparkly Alice bands ), and he 'shouldn't' covet his sisters pink roller skates.

It is ridiculous.

The instructors at the 'mixed' football classes always use the word boys when addressing the kids too, even though there is a girl there. "come on boys", or "right boys, listen up" etc. I always feel a bit sad for the little girl and wonder how long she'll last.

Panda'srock

You post accurately describes my experience too.

Tbh, it is so ingrained for many people, that they don't even notice.

Dd2 had her school play in the summer (just her year - then year 2, ratio of girls:boys was 2:1 in her year)

Without fail, every single 'leader' or 'power' part was given to a boy, despite there being so few of them. Girls were all assistants or inferior/lesser positions, so sidekicks, or Secretary instead of Prime Minister etc. and what was worse, was when I mentioned it in passing, no one else had noticed. Just utterly depressing.

pandasrock
That's terrible.

Parents are to blame though

I strongly disagree - we are not parenting in a vacuum.

When we didn't want to find out the sex of our DC - we faced huge pressure from the rest of the family as they couldn't buy the right colours and toys - apparently buying neutral wasn't possible.

When we bought neutral for DD1 -pfb- on grounds we were having more DC soon - IL went out and bought pink frilly clothes in such quantities it was unbelievable. We got rid of a lot of OTT frilly stuff and dyed the rest - and most agreed the clothes looked better. Friend with red headed DD who didn't want pink due to hair colour had same - DGP buying entire wardrobes in pink - then you are left with do you spend money already tight on more clothes or use them.

Other random people - including other parents also get miffed if a baby isn't dressed to reflect gender - as they then get it wrong - my Mum bought pink blankets to go with our gender neutral clothes. So there is social pressure - and what people buy our DC follow gender lines despite what we say - though my parents try with youngest DD who like "boy" things like cars but they always buy them pink.

It was random teenagers who passed DS pushing pink pushchair with toy in who made nasty girl and gay comments - this happened a few times- that made my DS not want to do it any more despite my reassurances and comments back.

It was DD1 yr 1 teacher who told her maths was a boy subject - we signed up for mathsfactor with Carol Vorderman in response when her maths too a hit.

It was DS teachers who said when he was struggling in certain areas it was because he was a boy - not because he as an individual needed a bit of extra help in those areas.He got the help at home and then did so much better.

All my DC do dance - but they do street and tap with a teacher who focuses on dancing - not like another local school that incorporates a lot of dressing up as princesses.As a result DS isn't only boy though there are more girls still - though it is usually especially the older the girls the only sport/excersies they do.

I got into trouble with another parent when DS insisted her DD lunch box was a boy lunch box.I have no idea why or where he picked that idea up from- and interestingly he wanted that one for his younger sister on a prior shopping trip as apparently such rules do not apply to her.

There are mixed toys in the house - they all play slightly differently with them - but people who come in like GP do make comments and observations which are gendered - and it's not always possible to stop though we do try and counter.

A lot of differences between DD1 and DS that we and others put down to gender have with DD2 proven to be personality much more. So YANBU to think we can't know how much innate differences matter.

I did read that once that research found there were greater differences between individuals than between genders - but can't remember where.

I played with all sorts when I was a baby, but I didn't play with baby dolls, kitchens etc. I was more action men, cars, etc. I'm female. My mum knew I'd like "boys toys" more because they flashed and made noises unlike the "girls toys".
I hated my sisters "girl toys" but I would happily sit with a barbie or a bratz behind closed doors
I don't think there's any difference between "girls" and "boys" between the ages of infant and school age. However, if I ever tried to stick my son into a pink tutu, DP would go off the rails. We had this conversation, girls toys are one thing, we don't mind, but sending a little boy to school on mufti days with a tutu on, it's asking for that little boy to be bullied.
No matter how politically correct people get with "its just a piece of cloth! If my son wants to dress in girl clothes, let him" and let him be bullied? I'd rather stick him in gender neutral colours than a skirt. I wanted to be a horse at 3... My mum didn't dress me as one!
but then again... I got bullied no matter what I wore/said/did so...

Within a term of preschool, she wanted to grow her hair (she got told she must be a boy if it was short), changed her favourite colour to pink to fit in, and wanted to wear only dresses instead of trousers.

Had that with a term of reception with DD1- not so with DD2 who still likes trousers and plays happily with everyone. Though with both of them their favourite colour is X and Y + pink.

DS with do things like loom - many of the boys do at their school - but he will only do it on red or blue looms - doesn't matter how we argue it he won't budge.

Even my mother, who has read numerous studies on it, is herself in a male dominated career, goes on about how little boys and little girls are so obviously different it's so ingrained.

I take a step back and look at her grandchildren - 3 boys and 2 girls - and see that they are all a complete mix. If you put out traditionally gendered toys I could predict who would play with each - and it wouldn't be a gender split, nor would it be consistently the same children playing with the same 'gender' toys, also with personality, they are all a mix with no gender divide according to traits.

Still she alleges that there's a difference (as she buys a pink kitchen set for one boy, roller skates for another boy and a girl etc. for Christmas). It's crazy how much people see what they want to see.

I remember at a toddler group DD1 and half fighting for and collecting up all the fairy bits - wings, wand sparkly costume - not for her but to dress her little brother up.

I really liked that group - as no one battered an eye lid.

I do agree though the girls do seem to have fewer outside restrictions imposed on what they play with than my DS.

Admittedly a few times GP and other parents have made comments when DD1 wanted to climb stuff in her favoured and self selected big fussy dresses - we usually just shrugged and let her get on with it and they follow suit when DD1 ignored them as well.

Both DD1 and DS used to bf toys - it was alarming how the nursery and some toddler groups made out it was odd - it was what they saw me doing a large part of the day- and they were copying.

How can anyone with more than the wit they were born with think that there can be anything innate about a preference for traditional gender appropriate toys?

The clue is in the name - a tradition is a social convention. It is obviously not biologically determined.

Why do these people imagine that females would be biologically programmed to reject wheeled toys?

Unless of course the wheeled toy is a pram, then their DNA tells them that they should like it because those are wheels for dolls.

The things you hear and read people coming out with to justify their own prejudices are just ludicrous.

I am fed up with being told my son will have a natural instinct to play with guns when his female cousin will not. it's a crock of shit.

people often say that their children were not socialised to like certain things but they ARE, as soon as they come into contact with the rest of the world (Including their parents) they will be expected to be a certain way based upon their gender.

Totally, totally agree on how it's impossible to escape from societal expectations/structures. I've found even relatives (though not my mum, thanks mum) doing the "oh, he's such a boy" with both my DS when they are being noisy/rambunctious or playing with cars, etc. but say nothing when, eg, DS1 spends ages quietly colouring/doing puzzles/making things with Lego, or DS2 carefully tucks his toy bunny into bed, or DS1 indulges his mysterious obsession with Strawberry Shortcake, etc. etc.

Also agree it gets more pronounced once they hit preschool/school - I think kids that age really want to sort things into categories, so "I am a boy... I like boy things", etc. DS1 has on several occasions asked me in a puzzled fashion why his friend E (who is a girl) likes Batman (which is a "boy thing").

Going slightly off OP but sticking with the girls and sport theme. I just googled 'girls doing sport' the first few sites were headed with the word "sexy"

FFS!

I don't get this absolute refusal that accept that perhaps differences between men and women to slightly further that 'penis' vs 'vagina'. I mean l, given that there are some pretty marked differences physically between men and women (including things like the fact that physically men are stronger than women in a general sense), its not a huge leap to suggest that they are also generally different in other ways as well (eg. Nurturing etc)? I'm not saying its true, and it is a hard experiment to undertake due to obvious social constraints, but surely its a possibility?

Mind you, the other end of the spectrum is ridiculous as well - no dollies for boys, only pink Lego for girls. And my MIL telling me exactly what my DD is going to be like because that's what 'girls' (in fact the enormous sample group of her only daughter) are like

Argh typos!

Where have you come across this "absolute refusal"?

I've never experienced it.

An absolute refusal to accept lazy, essentialist stereotyping doesn't imply that you are not open to the existence of physical differences between me and female bodies that go beyond genitals.