To not understand why someone from the UK with a British education would want to join an extremist organisation

[Wowthishurtsalot]

I don't understand it. Moreso if they are 2nd and older generation British who could have conversations with their elders as to why they emigrated to the UK and the hope they had when they came here.

What is the attraction?

I found the student room forum a few years ago (I'm not a student myself), I agree some of the posters and the views expressed are shocking.

I had no reaction to my post earlier about the christian children being killed in front of their parents in Northern Iraq by Isis for refusing to convert to Islam. There seems to be no mentioning of by the UK media.

Young people get very angry and passionate when they start to hear about the way the world is run and the injustices going on. Young people are often just angry and confused anyway.

I can imagine being Muslim in the UK since 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan etc has been quite difficult. I can understand why some young Muslims think fuck you and turn more to Islam. It must be hugely conflicting being born and brought up in the Uk AK and seeing the hate shown to much of the Muslim world. The wars we have waged against their fellow Muslims, sometimes in countries they still have strong family links to. If they get in with the wrong crowd and have someone radical in their ear - it's not that surprising that a few get sucked in.

Young folk have always went off to fight a cause they say as just. I do wonder if those who have rushed off to join Isis are happy to run a mock or are horrified and wish they had never got involved.

"yes but they are not killing anyone in the way Isis are."

So much ignorance on this thread. The West aren't killing people in the way Isis are. No, we are killing many, many more innocent civilians, including children. Because we do it with our armies and with death raining out of the skies, does that make it any better?

The reality is that the US, backed by us, has been at war for years. But it's not spoken about in the popular press, and so we have threads like this where people - innocent in their ignorance - express incredulity that organisations like Isis exist.

I'm not surprised terrorism exists. The War on Terror is creating terrorists left right and centre. What do you expect happens when we go into countries and bomb the shit out of innocent civilians, in order to get oil and further American interests? Do you think everyone will just say "it's OK, they're doing it in the name of democracy, I'm not going to retaliate, even though you've killed everyone I care about and raised my hometown to the ground".

I'm not saying I sympathise with them - please don't misunderstand me here.

But violence creates violence. If we bomb people - civilians in their homes -we will create terrorists. This is what we were marching against, this was bound to happen IMO. We went into Irag on false pretences. It was about oil, of course it was.

As long as we go around the world, bombing civilians, arming highly suspect dictators and groups, and supporting the US's aggressive foreign policy - war in other words - then terrorists will be created.

The first step is to acknowledge our own part in all this. And to recognise that while our governments sanction the killing of people in foreign lands to further our own interests, we will have blood on our hands and should not be surprised when violence affects us too.

For anyone who can't see the image above, it breaks down the estimated direct war deaths in Irag, Pakistan and Afganistan as follows:

Civilians: 222,000
Opposition Forces: 88,024
Allied Military & Police: 30,499
US Contractors: 6,802
US Forces: 6,787
Other Allied Troops:1,432
Humanitarian Workers, 438
Journalists: 344

220,000 civilians. That's ordinary women, men and children just like you and me and our families.

If that happened to our country, do you not think it would be inevitable that some would form extremist groups? Not saying it would be a good idea. Just not surprising.

Those figures come from this site by the way: [[//www.costsofwar.org]]

They are only direct deaths attributed to war. Thy caution the figures do not include indirect deaths which may total many hundreds of thousands more.

The website says:

"Over 350,000 Killed by Violence, $4.4 Trillion Spent and Obligated.

The wars begun in 2001 have been tremendously painful for millions of people in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan, and the United States, and economically costly as well. Each additional month and year of war adds to that toll. Moreover, the human costs of these conflicts will reverberate for years to come in each of those four countries. There is no turning the page on the wars with the end of hostilities, and there is even more need as a result to understand what those wars’ consequences are and will be."

I've always wondered why it makes a difference really if a family are killed in their beds from an drone missile launched hundreds of miles away from a warship or from what we call terrorists on the ground using guns or suicide vests as they don't have our sophisticated military machine behind them.

Wow, I mangled that link above, but it still seems to work!

I totally agree Bambambibi.

What is the "War on terror" a war on anyway?

When we've gone to war before it's been against an ideology (e.g. Fascism), or in defence.

But what is "Terror"? It's a method of war (generally used by people who don't have access to an army and the really big guns) not an ideology. So are we basically declaring war on those who would fight us but don't have armies? It doesn't make sense!

(I can't claim this as an original idea btw, I heard it somewhere years ago, but I forget where!)

And if the War on Terror is mean to irradiate extremism, well it's failing miserably as it's creating new extremists all over the place, in fact it's probably the main cause of extremism in the world today.

For example, this link States that I over 90% of terrorist attacks on US soil were not by Muslims

i'd take that with a pound of salt. It appears they weighted all attacks the same. So, a pipe bomb with 0 dead was the same as september 11.

Derren Brown once used his skills to make perfectly ordinary, decent people take part in an armed robbery.

I imagine that some of that same mind manipulation is also employed by terror organisations.

Wigglylines brilliant posts.

I too don't understand how people can get upset by ISIS but don't appear to be bothered by the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Is it because our weapons don't have the perceived "brutality" that a beheading does?

Educated people throughout history have become radicalised, thousands of well educated Brits joined the "fight against fascism" in the spanish civil war, fighting against what they perceived to be massive injustice.
The religion and aims are different, but the anger at injustice and the motivation to fight it are the same I think. It is by no means exclusive to Islam/ the Middle East.

There are plenty if moderate Muslims. All the Muslims I know are moderate.
The thing about moderate Muslims is that they don't bother talking about religion. They don't frequent religious forums and boards because it's just not that much of a big deal to them.
Most of the women don't wear hijab a so you wouldn't know if they are Muslims or not and they just live normal lives going to work,
Socialising and watching TV.

And don't undestimate the way cults work. It is very easy to brain wash someone - all you need to do is to find a weakness or vulnerability then exploit it.

I do wonder how these impressionable young folk will feel a few years down the line, living in their 'paradise', wgen theur eyes open and they see their real world - the society they were so desperate to build. With its corruption, violence, intollerence and absolute disrespect for human life. When the jihadi bride finds that her warrior husband would sacrifice her and his own babies, murder women and children and buy another woman as a slave/to rape in a street market. Its a bloody long way from Luton, isn't t?

Part of me thinks 'serves them right, bloody idiots, I hope they feel the fear and desperation of the people they are destroying'. Part of me - the compassionate brotherhood of man part - feels desperately sorry for the fools.

It really isn't difficult to turn young people into terrorists.

1. Show them the RL suffering of others with whom they identify.
2. Tell them of the perpetrator's worse excesses (torture, rape etc.). 3. Tell them that they can stop it.
3. Recruit.

Teenagers are particularly ripe for the picking as they are not as risk adverse, tend to explore different ideologies and are often angry at the perceived failure of adults to solve problems. Also they don't have children, jobs or homes that they are giving up.

As Wiggly said, violence begets violence and the unnecessary wars we waged in Afganistan and Iraq have sown bitter and bloody seeds.

writtenguaratee - you may take it with a pound of salt, but the vast majority of terrorist organizations today have nothing to do with Islam, any division of statistics weighted or not will give you the same answer. And small attacks add up - you kill 10 or so people again and again and again and again, you not only get greater numbers than one large attack, you people in a more constant state of fear (see drone bombing where the West has made children afraid of clear skies). The fact that the media and systems in the US and UK focus on Muslim terrorism and the recruitment of extremists there when there are far bigger and more numerous White supremacist (and in the States, radical Christian groups, including Baptists and Methodists, who think they are doing their deity's work bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors and kidnapping the children of those they deem deviant) who are actively recruiting vulnerable young people in the same way says far more about the systems these governments want to protect than the level of threat these groups. Young people born in the UK with British education join extremist organizations regularly, they are pushed to attack people regularly, but the ones that get media attention, the ones were suppose to notice are not the ones that create the most threat but support the point of view of the media and government while others are ignored.

The fact the media calls murders in some cultures 'honour killings' and dismiss that the attacks and murders by men of their partners, their ex-partners, people who don't date them, gay men and trans women has anything to do the value system young men here are socialized in, that our men don't murder because they feel dishonoured by people around them, shows far more about our self perceptions and the media than it does about the values of others. We're not that different, our system just colours us differently to create division and set up a reasons for actions, little more.

And small attacks add up - you kill 10 or so people again and again and again and again, you not only get greater numbers than one large attack,

the numbers are posted in the study. most attacks have 0 deaths. the only one that remotely comes close (at 1/20 or so the deaths) is the oklahoma city bombing. I am not going to add up the numbers, but my guess is that the 9/11 attack alone dwarfs all the other ones combined in number of deaths. That matters.

you people in a more constant state of fear (see drone bombing where the West has made children afraid of clear skies).

I never once said I supported drone bombings. they are appalling. but that's a different issue.

and in the States, radical Christian groups, including Baptists and Methodists, who think they are doing their deity's work bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors and kidnapping the children of those they deem deviant

there is a wiki page on abortion clinic bombings. if you look there, 8 people have died in such acts of terrorism. Yes, it's terrible and religiously motivated, and both the people who do these things (or support them at a distance) should be condemned, along with the scriptures that they say motivate them.

Same for every other group.

*8 people since 1993.

I wasn't discussing any link and haven't viewed it (and my entire comment wasn't towards you).

I'll be open - I was raised in an extremist US Christian cult. It worked alongside the Methodists and the Baptists who keep being brought up by others. They use all of the methods to recruit that are being brought up when discussing 'radicalising Muslims' and more. They focus on recruiting young, vulnerable, disillusioned young people, they talk on and on about how young people can change the world just by doing what the group wants, they say what they do isn't violence, it's saving people, it's removing the Devil and the oppression on Christians, that 'those people' are filled with the Devil so hating and harming them will free them and that their kids must be saved (often violently). They call it 'giving themselves to Jesus'. And they've attacked people, they've pushed the legislation which has taken away the safety buffer zone around health clinics so people are being attacked up to the doors in many places, people have been maimed, people have been attacked and maimed and kidnapped for leaving. My children have been threatened and I honestly think if I hadn't left the States I would have met a horrid end by now, I was threatened with it enough times before I left (I already had to get the police involved after a member who had threatened to take my children and far worse took pictures of himself in front of my University and places of work in the UK). Radicalization is happening now and not just is Islam. The idea that what other groups are doing isn't extremeism dismisses the harm that they are causing and the methods they are using to get what they want and recruit people and get larger society to talk about what they want to talk about.

Amount dead I would honestly leave up to debate because they've done ruthless things and continue to encourage their young to do ruthless things, amount of lives ruined, that would be more difficult to number especially as it and other similar organizations started joining up with each other and with White supremacy organizations ages ago (and for some are their origins). They're planning stuff, so many counter terrorism organization say so, with the number of groups (far more than Muslim groups), size of groups (the one I was raised in has at last count over 50k members - I call that church a cult on how they act), larger networks (White Supremacy networks globally are getting more and more interconnected, it's very frightening how connected they're all getting, and they have killed thousands in recent years, that one isn't even debatable to me, I see reports weekly which is where the 10 again and again came from in my original post), and while they plan they are pushing into legislation and lobbying and pushing the scope of conversation in politics further and further in their direction. There is far more to fear from extremist groups than suicide bombers, it's the recruitment and radicalization to society that they are pushing for and getting into rhetoric and government both in the US and UK.