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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Local Waitrose supporting anti-abortion charity

230 replies

WaitroseSucks · 27/10/2014 17:00

Waitrose gives shoppers tokens to drop into collecting points to support local charities. My local Waitrose is currently supporting a 'pregnancy counselling service'. I checked the 'charity's' website, which has all the usual guff about offering 'impartial advice', then checked their parent company and discovered that it's run by these guys.

AIBU to think Waitrose should check the credentials of 'charities' before collecting on their behalf? I imagine there would be outrage if Waitrose openly supported a charity like Abortion Rights, whose name does what it says on the tin.

Have tried to contact someone at my local store, but relevant person is 'away until Wednesday'. Meanwhile the collection points will continue to operate and unwary shoppers will be supporting a 'charity' that is concealing its true agenda.

Have name changed for this, but am MN regular.

OP posts:
AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 16:32

It doesn't seem that confusing to me? They are an independent charity using local volunteers, but they use a counselling approach and materials developed by Care Confidential.

PercyHorse · 28/10/2014 16:34

Thank you

sparechange · 28/10/2014 16:36

a counselling approach which has been proven to include the use of outright lies and misinformation to steer women towards an outcome which fits the fervent religious beliefs of all the volunteers and umbrella organisation

You can't see anything wrong with that?

merrymouse · 28/10/2014 16:43

From the article:

*CPCs claim to offer women the chance to speak to 'trained advisors' and yet the information they share about the physical and mental effects of an abortion is often not supported by medical evidence or in line with the official advice of the Royal College of Obstetricians.

These centres are not regulated by the Department of Health and it is often uncertain who runs them, despite repeat attempts by the media and charities to find out. However, it is understood by BPAS employees that many CPCs are linked to church groups in the UK. It is because these centres are not regulated and are totally independent of the NHS that they are not obligated to give women medically accurate information.*

This is a problem because

  1. It is wrong to mislead vulnerable people.
  2. I don't want charities who obscure their purpose and affiliation on the Waitrose green token box any more than I want unidentified horse meat in my burger.
PercyHorse · 28/10/2014 16:44

Handy link.

'However, we have been disappointed that we have seen fewer crisis pregnancy clients this year and as ever have been working hard to raise our profile in the community'

I wonder why?

In March this year we hosted the annual training day for pregnancy counselling centres in Sussex. Forty people attended and heard Paul Staley, the CEO from CareConfidential give the keynote address

Obviously they're like, totally independent.

ASDA have funded them too. They could do with a tweet.

Trunkisareshite · 28/10/2014 16:45

See 18th December post.

Local Waitrose supporting anti-abortion charity
PercyHorse · 28/10/2014 16:46

They might want to tell Google too

'Acorn Pregnancy Advisory Centre - Care Confidential
www.careconfidential.com/Stockport/StoryArchive.aspx
CareConfidential Online offers confidential, unbiased pregnancy and abortion counselling through a network of centres located throughout the United Kingdom'

PercyHorse · 28/10/2014 16:49

[[Acorn Pregnancy Advisory Centre - Care Confidential
www.careconfidential.com/Stockport/StoryArchive.aspx
CareConfidential Online offers confidential, unbiased pregnancy and abortion counselling through a network of centres located throughout the United Kingdom.]]

AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 16:51

"Aga, do you not think you are giving an awful lot of credence to their stated aims and leaflets, when they are part of a network which has been proven on multiple occasions to say one thing and do quite another?"

There is no central control though. They are independent charities.

For example, per The Guardian

"A counsellor at Alternatives Pregnancy Choices Newham, a Care Confidential affiliate in east London, was said to have been friendly, well-informed and able to recommend abortion providers, including Marie Stopes and BPAS."

so a particular charity affiliated to Care was fine.

however

'A counsellor at Choices Haringey in north London, part of a network overseen by Care Confidential, a Christian organisation, did not know the legal time limit for abortion, claimed that there were no statistics on the number of women who have terminations and had little idea about local services.

The counsellor frequently referred to "The Journey" – a training manual – and handed out photocopied pages from its 10-step "road to abortion recovery", including steps entitled "guilt and shame" and "forgiveness".

Other sections of the manual (which were not given to the researcher) state: "Part of the healing journey to post-abortion recovery involves repentance – the only remedy for guilt. If we are to walk this journey with a woman then we need to clearly see which boundaries she has crossed … immorality, coveting, lying, as well as taking innocent life."'

another one wasn't.

In response:

"Julia Acott, Care Confidential's counselling and support services manager, said the organisation was sorry the service provided at Haringey "fell below the standards expected". The adviser in question would be retrained.

She said Care Confidential became an independent charity on 1 July, adding: "One of the first actions we are implementing is a full review of quality control, training and support across the centres.

"Part of this will include a review of all the published materials, from websites to training manuals, including that for The Journey, where circumstances, thinking and language has moved on in the years since it was published. The training manuals will be updated and rewritten in language that reflects the diversity of people, of different faiths and none, who will use and benefit from it.""

That was in 2011, and there was no suggestion that all Care Confidential-affiliated charities were bad.

In 2014, Care's materials have been replaced, and their Pregnancy Counselling course is now an accredited further education course.

And FWIW, the same investigation showed that individual Marie Stopes counsellors were not impartial either:

"On the phone, the operator repeatedly tried to book me in for a medical assessment, the first step to getting an abortion — despite me stressing that I hadn’t yet made up my mind.

I felt bulldozed into starting the termination process and had to insist on having counselling. In real life, a worried woman might have gone along with whatever she was told.

When contacted later, a Marie Stopes spokeswoman admitted their adviser was ‘slower to understand the client’s needs than we would have liked, but we are pleased that after contacting our One Call service, face-to-face counselling was provided’.

That counselling session took place the next day in Bloomsbury, central London. It cost £80 for just 30 minutes, but would have been free had I been referred by my GP.

It quickly became apparent that my counsellor was quite happy to influence my decisions. Her overwhelming advice was that I ‘must’ tell my boyfriend, even though there is no legal requirement to do so.

She was openly disapproving when I said I hadn’t spoken to him, and seemed reluctant to talk about any option other than termination. ‘There’s a huge danger to your relationship,’ she said. ‘If you did have an abortion without telling him?.?.?.?you could end up resenting him for something he knows nothing about.’

Questioned about the size of the foetus, or the risks of infertility caused by abortion, she said ‘You’ll have to talk to a nurse about that’, or ‘I don’t have the exact statistics’.

Nevertheless, the message seemed very much to be that abortion was the best option. ‘It goes against our very nature to have an abortion,’ she said. ‘But we do things every day that go against our very nature.’

This was followed by: ‘You want what you want?.?.?.?is it worth having a child because you don’t want to deal with a bit of guilt?’

And this was compared with another Care affiliate in Islington:

"What I can do is tell you what your options are. I can’t tell you what to do: that’s completely your decision.’
And that’s exactly what she did. Over the 50-minute session, she encouraged me to talk through my thoughts on continuing or terminating the pregnancy. She also provided detailed, accurate information about where I could go for an abortion and what it involved. Her only advice was that I made a decision soon, as I was already quite late on in the pregnancy."

That's Care's published approach.

There are allegations of bias on both sides - counsellors organisations that perform abortions may have a bias towards abortion, and those at Christian charities may have a bias against it, but the counselling approach that Care proscribes is not of itself problematic, and there is no evidence that Acorn, Worthing does anything objectionable.

AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 17:00

Ok so apparently the centres are no longer affiliated with Care Confidential, as of February 2014
www.careconfidential.com/Centres.aspx

"Please use our Telephone Helpline or Online Advisor service for the support you need. CareConfidential no longer has a network of affiliated centres but can signpost you appropriately to services in your area."

AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 17:05

"Earlier this year, in February 2014, there were several articles in the national press about the lack of “official” regulation of pregnancy crisis centres, which led Care Confidential (our affiliating organisation), to take the unexpected and decisive step to disaffiliate all centres that were previously under their leadership. Subsequently, Care Confidential also decided to introduce revised training arrangements for both new and existing advisers, and to work towards accrediting individual advisers, rather than affiliating local centres, as had been the case since the centre opened in 2003. These sudden and sweeping changes in accreditation and training have led our current advisers to decide that after ten years of service to the centre, it is time for them to stand down from the work."

So it would seem that Care Confidential is trying to following the regulations, but as each individual pregnancy centre is unregulated it's currently a lottery as to which ones are good or not.

Either way, the bottom line is that you can't really go around saying 'Waitrose Sucks' unless you have some evidence that Acorn, Worthing has done something bad.

AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 17:05

Sorry that quote is from a different centre, not Worthing.

merrymouse · 28/10/2014 17:33

That is really interesting - Feb 2014 was when the Telegraph article came out. Seems odd that they wouldn't want to create more of a brand name. I mean the Samaritans say who they are - they don't have lots of little independent charities.

Whether or not Marie Stopes is biased towards abortions is not relevant. It is quite clear that when you go to a Marie Stopes clinic you are going to a Marie Stopes clinic and I have yet to hear of Marie Stopes being chosen to share the little green tokens at Waitrose.

AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 17:45

The Samaritans was probably setup differently. Acorn Worthing was established in 1997.

It would be very difficult for the Care Confidential to amalgamate a hundred or so local charities, so given that the have no control and were obviously not willing to be associated with some of the centres that use their materials, they took the step to dissociate from all of them.

sparechange · 28/10/2014 17:55

So the way I read that is that when Care Confidential pulled the plug on pulling the strings of these organisations, the volunteers stood down.
That speaks volumes about the level of direction that they must have been getting from Care Confidential previously to be unable to continue without them in the driving seat.

And I still can't find any plausible reason why their recruitment drive for new volunteers - both crisis pregnancy and schools teams - can't extend beyond the congregation of an evangelical church. A place where you are guaranteed to find people dogmatic in their views towards abortion and also spreading their take on the word of god. It is indefensible that they can call themselves an impartial organisation when they will only use people who share the exact same beliefs as them on the very subject they are supposed to be impartial about.
At best you would get unconscious bias and at worst, the sort of behaviour filmed by the Telegraph in Feb 14

CarryOn90 · 28/10/2014 17:57

Oh god, "pro abortion charity"

You mean those charities that think women should have freedom over their own bodies, like what is that all about Hmm

Stupid way to phrase it. Makes it sound like women are encouraged or forced to have abortions. You mean a pro choice charity.

That's the difference. One gives women a choice. The other says that women should be allowed no choice.

merrymouse · 28/10/2014 18:08

From the guardian article www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/02/abortion-pregnancy-counselling-found-wanting

A Counsellor at Choices Haringey in north London, part of a network overseen by Care Confidential, a Christian organisation, did not know the legal time limit for abortion, claimed that there were no statistics on the number of women who have terminations and had little idea about local services.

The counsellor frequently referred to "The Journey" – a training manual – and handed out photocopied pages from its 10-step "road to abortion recovery", including steps entitled "guilt and shame" and "forgiveness".

Other sections of the manual (which were not given to the researcher) state: "Part of the healing journey to post-abortion recovery involves repentance – the only remedy for guilt. If we are to walk this journey with a woman then we need to clearly see which boundaries she has crossed … immorality, coveting, lying, as well as taking innocent life."]]

From the Acorn annual report

We supported 33 clients through pregnancy loss via our one to one Journey programme, seeing them for a total of 322 sessions (299 in 2012).
Of those who completed the Journey programme, 12 clients had had an abortion and 17 had had miscarriages.

I have no reason to believe the counsellor at Acorns is as sketchy about abortion facts as the Haringey counsellor, but are we to assume that they use a different 'Journey'?

AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 18:13

"So the way I read that is that when Care Confidential pulled the plug on pulling the strings of these organisations, the volunteers stood down."

Well not particularly, that's just one out of 100+ centres. So less than 1% of the total. And I assume that the reason they decided to step down was because they objected to Care Confidential changing to impartial, rather than explicitly pro-life, materials.

WaitroseSucks · 28/10/2014 18:17

sparechange this is a good point: And I still can't find any plausible reason why their recruitment drive for new volunteers - both crisis pregnancy and schools teams - can't extend beyond the congregation of an evangelical church.

The organisation I work for advertises its vacancies on its own website, as well as externally. I think this is common practice. Acorn's job vacancies (or volunteering vacancies) aren't even on their own website. As you say, limiting your recruitment drive to evangelical churches speaks volumes.

OP posts:
AgaPanthers · 28/10/2014 18:20

"I have no reason to believe the counsellor at Acorns is as sketchy about abortion facts as the Haringey counsellor, but are we to assume that they use a different 'Journey'?"

I wouldn't think so, but it explicitly refers to supporting '33 clients through pregnancy loss'. So they were using 'Journey' for people who had miscarriages, or who had already had abortions and were seeking counselling - not inappropriate.

There's no reference to using that for women who were pregnant and considering abortion.

From what I see there were two (or more) different products:

  • Called to Care - for pregnant women
  • Journey - for women after pregnancy loss

Presumably it was considered inappropriate to use 'Journey' for pregnant women.

Now Called to Care has been replaced with Pregnancy Choices, I'm not sure whether Journey is still being used.

WaitroseSucks · 28/10/2014 18:30

Acorns... also supported by St Matthews Church Worthing, who give them free meeting space for AGM etc., and River of Life Church. Furthermore, Acorn 'Friends' are invited to download a 'prayer letter'. They also hold 'prayer lunches and breakfasts'.

They are looking less and less 'impartial' the more I google.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 28/10/2014 18:31

Most people would argue that it is inappropriate to 'counsel' a women who has had an abortion in terms of repentance for "immorality, coveting, lying, as well as taking innocent life"

You could probably argue the case for that kind of 'counselling' if you make your pro-life and/or religious stance clear - not if you are representing yourself as an unbiased counsellor.

SevenZarkSeven · 28/10/2014 18:34

I must admit I'm also concerned about an arm of this organisation getting into schools in order to shape the ideas of young people or whatever that was upthread.

I don't know whether there is any more detail available on what they cover and I don't know whether a teacher would be present whether they deliver their message (not au fait with school procedures around visitors).

TsukuruTazaki · 28/10/2014 20:26

Interesting to see some of the quotes from Marie stopes counsellors upthread.

I didn't rate their counselling at ALL and found the one I spoke to completely unprofessional, very biased and totally abortion pushing. They didnt want to listen at all and just wanted to immediately book in for abortion. In the end that was what I decided to do in my case but I was really distressed by their counselling, it was just awful. It doesn't mean I don't support them as an organisation - I do - but I am a bit Hmm when they are held up as a great example of impartiality and counselling services.

A lot of people on mumsnet like to say its a myth that most women are affected/traumatised/feel regret by abortions but I think the myth is that abortion is something really minor and you immediately go on with your life as if nothing happened. The truth is somewhere in the middle.