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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that law is an academic degree

69 replies

ordermeapizza · 22/10/2014 20:01

and not a vocational degree?

IMO medicine, nursing, etc are vocational as they lead directly to a job and once you've finished your degree you are qualified to work in that profession.

Law on the other hand doesn't actually qualify you to be a lawyer and you need to complete further training after your degree if you want to be a lawyer.

I class a law degree to be academic like English and history.

AIBU?

OP posts:
GotToBeInItToWinIt · 22/10/2014 21:28

Definitely academic, however disagree it's dull. Loved my law degree. Decided not to go on and take my LPC in the end but don't regret studying law at all.

ShadowKat · 22/10/2014 21:29

As far as I'm aware, medical students aren't fully qualified the minute they finish their medicine degrees either. They have to do an extra 2 foundation years before they can even apply for any specialist training.

I'd call both medicine and law academic degrees, albeit ones firmly focused towards one profession.

NotTheKitchenAgainPlease · 22/10/2014 21:30

Not 'or seclude' - exclude!!

Mitchy1nge · 22/10/2014 21:31

Probably more a case of my English studies failing to help me express myself very clearly Wine are you doing:/have you got a TC?

TheGirlWhoPlayedWithFire · 22/10/2014 21:47

Doing a law degree doesn't equal a solicitor/barrister and as such acceptance onto the Roll or at the Bar requires completion of the degree, the LPC/BVC and the post two year training. In that sense I'd certainly class it as academic rather than vocational as the role - although leads you into one profession requires constant research and training and therefore isn't complete upon acceptance on the roll/bar.

They haven't done away with any part of the training - although it is in consultation to remove the training contract element of it.

splendide · 22/10/2014 22:16

I would support the removal of the training contract I think. It works ok in the U.S.

ChelsyHandy · 22/10/2014 22:24

Law, as in the LLB, is long known as a vocational degree and that is one of its main selling points. Not every student goes on to be a lawyer, but you cannot (in practical terms) be a lawyer without a law degree.

The degree itself requires certain professionally recognised subjects to be passed otherwise it would not permit the degree holder to practice as a lawyer. Like law-related degrees which are not the LLB, such as Legal Studies or similar.

Medicine also requires two years minimum further training to qualify as a doctor. As does accounting for example.

raltheraffe · 22/10/2014 22:30

Although I have a friend with a law degree who works in marketing for Visa, I would assume the vast majority of people with law degrees do become solicitors or barristers, but I guess I could be wrong,

Shahrazad · 22/10/2014 22:30

but you cannot (in practical terms) be a lawyer without a law degree.

Not strictly accurate.

No LLB here but I do have an LLM, and was called to the Bar, and practised for some years. And now I teach it.

Greengrow · 22/10/2014 22:31

Half don't, mostly because they aren't good enough to get to the next stage to be blunt about it.

splendide · 22/10/2014 22:35

Lots of lawyers don't have law degrees - I don't. I did the GDL.

Mitchy1nge · 22/10/2014 22:46

and most people with law degrees don't become lawyers

ChelsyHandy · 23/10/2014 00:24

Shahrazad but you cannot (in practical terms) be a lawyer without a law degree.

Not strictly accurate.

That's why I put the qualification in brackets in. I know it is possible to take another route, but its far less common. And increasingly so.

splendide and mitchyinge do you have any figures to back up the points you are making?

If the LLB weren't a vocational degree, it would mean any degree with a law element would entitle the bearer to the same reduced path to the profession, which it doesn't. And it would mean that there would be no need for compulsory courses to satisfy the requirements of the Law Society for admission to the profession.

Shahrazad · 23/10/2014 00:30

Shahrazad but you cannot (in practical terms) be a lawyer without a law degree.

Not strictly accurate.

That's why I put the qualification in brackets in. I know it is possible to take another route, but its far less common. And increasingly so.

You said it's not easy to be a lawyer without a law degree.
I disagreed

I was pointing out that it's not necessary to have a law degree. My first degree is not in law. I followed the GDL route (though it wasn't called that bakc then) and this is very common, and increasingly so.

I suspect from your further comments you intended to put the emphasis on degree - and I would agree with that . Although not impossible, the non-degree route to qualification is not common now. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Shahrazad · 23/10/2014 00:31

back not bakc

cold fingers and typing do not mix.

TsukuruTazaki · 23/10/2014 00:31

ChelsyHandy, wondering what perspective you're looking at this from. I would say it is actually still very common for lawyers to study other subjects at undergraduate level and then take the GDL.

I'm a lawyer at a big City firm and around half of the intake each year comes via the GDL route. That is certainly the norm in most of the City. I accept it might be a different story on the high street.

pookamoo · 23/10/2014 00:35

chelsy "splendide and mitchyinge do you have any figures to back up the points you are making?"

When I did my law degree (graduated 2001) a lecturer asked us to raise our hands if we wanted to become a solicitor or barrister. In the whole room, about 10 out of 100ish put up their hand.

I don't have any statistics, but I do know I raised my hand and I am a solicitor.

If I had my time again, I would not choose a law degree.

GotToBeInItToWinIt · 23/10/2014 03:06

ralther I have a law degree and work in marketing for another, very very similar financial organisation!

Roonerspism · 23/10/2014 03:40

Definitely not a dull degree..... I loved my degree.

I see "vocational" degrees as having more hands on placements during the degree. So nursing, medicine - students are away out of the lecture theatre.

You don't do this with law until after the initial years of (intense) study.

TheRealAmandaClarke · 23/10/2014 06:09

Its vocational. Quite different from a subject like geography or history.

flowery · 23/10/2014 06:21

What difference does it make whether any individual person would describe it as vocational or academic?

And I know loads of lawyers who don't have a law degree.

legalalien · 23/10/2014 06:29

Just to add, the idea of doing a degree in another subject and then doing the GDL to "convert" to law seems to be peculiar to england /wales (don't know about other UK countries). In other commonwealth countries, europe and I suspect elsewhere there is no choice but a four plus year highly academic law degree.

Greengrow · 23/10/2014 07:20

Now in 2014 and back 20 years ago half of those becoming solicitors barristers first did a different degree. I read law and it's a wonderful subject to do. My daughters didn't but we are all solicitors. Law is an academic subject in practice so in a sense the theory is the vocation - you are paid for your brains in a sense and knowledge. You use what you learn on either the 3 year law degree or one year GDL every day if you don't do a law degree.

raltheraffe · 23/10/2014 07:52

Medics are provisionally registered with the GMC from the moment they qualify. When I was a doctor provisional registration was for a year, but now foundation trainees do 2 years so the provisional registration is probably for 2 years. Once the provisional registration is completed you get a full registration. 99.9% of doctors get the full registration, you have to do something really bad not to get it.

ChelsyHandy · 23/10/2014 08:06

Sharazad I suspect from your further comments you intended to put the emphasis on degree - and I would agree with that . Although not impossible, the non-degree route to qualification is not common now. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I didn't. I qualified the preceding term in the way I meant to.

Tsukuru et al I'm not an English qualified lawyer, so was speaking from experience of European qualifications other than England. I had no idea that it was so common to do law degrees and then not practice, or to do non-law degrees and then practice. From the way people on here are describing it, it sounds as though more than 50% do the latter, and I would question that. I would lay a bet on it being far less, even in England.

Virtually every solicitor I've encountered has done a law degree, PG qualification and then training contract of some type or specification. The only two solicitors I've met who did not law degrees and then conversion courses were quite elderly. I'm not sure of the figures from my degree, but I would be surprised if all but a very few had not started it with the aim of becoming practising lawyers.

Hence my viewpoint that it has always been a vocational degree, as far as my jurisdiction is concerned. In fact, it was very much marketed as a vocational degree throughout the entire applications process and we were reminded of it constantly during the degree itself - that we were doing a course that would require us to develop practical skills and the ability to apply them once we went into practice.