to worry about my teenage daughter going vegan?

[Meechimoo]

She's 14.
She decided to go veggie about a month ago.
She now wants to cut out all animal products and be vegan.
I've had long long conversations about this with her and told her that I'm very concerned about it. I'm worried she'll end up with poor nutrition and get rickets or something. I'm worried she won't get enough calories from a vegan diet.
But she's 14, almost 15, and hellbent on being vegan. The way I look at it, I can't force feed her dairy, can I?

My husband, her Dad, is dead against it because he thinks this is a control thing and we shouldn't allow her to dictate this sort of thing. And he's worried at additional cost to our food bill if we have to get her supplements, soya milk, vegan cheese etc.
Are there any vegan mumsnetters with vegan teens out there? How do you do it? Is it ok? Are they healthy and enough energy? Should I just go with it and support her or put our feet down and say she can remain veggie but we're not supporting her going vegan??

Whole cultures have a cuisine which is entirely vegetarian
If you choose to eat meat then go ahead and do so, but don't kid yourself that it's necessary, it's a choice ?

Côte - Self imposed malnutrition!? How bloody rude. And ignorant.

And to presume anything when there is a wealth of information only a click away is really foolish.

Cakedcrusader you have pretty much summed it up, it really couldn't be more simple re the ethical standpoint. But some people are intent on misunderstanding...it's tiring.

A few of my friends are vegan. Great, their choice etc. (I eat meat). What I don't like is that one of them bangs on and on about vegan food/lifestyle/products she won't use of eat etc. and it gets very wearing. My respect for her choice is, unfortunately, not reciprocated.

What I would say to the OP's DD is not to become a vegan evangelist. Her choice is a personal one and it's not her place to try to convince anyone else. I would support her decision at that age though.

However, I would watch for the other control issues I've known another vegan to have e.g. You can't use the same cooking/eating utensils as they have touched meat etc. If they've been washed (esp in a dishwasher), they're clean.

You can't use the same cooking/eating utensils as they have touched meat etc

How is that a 'control issue'? I don't want meat juices/fragments in my dinner. And given that most households surely have more than one wooden spoon, it's hardly an imposition.

Cote - I don't begrudge a fox eating a baby chick but I do have a massive issue with humans throwing them live into a grinder (purely as they have no value to the meat industry)....you probably think you're quite funny pretending it is a relevant comparison.

Gosh, vegans arent seen in a good light! Its really not a limited diet. Theres a wealth of produce and recipies.

It is a different way of eating from what you are used to but give it a couple of months and it'll just feel like the norm.

I can see that declaring you won't eat the same food as the rest of the family could seem quite a big deal, a rejection of the family norms, a way of distancing yourself.
Certainly it could be seen as hugely symbolic, a way of saying 'what nourishes and sustains you (ie meat) is anathema to me'

She is drawing the battle lines and challenging her parents to take her on.

Personally I would let her get on with it, not make any kind of a fuss or big deal and just treat it as totally unimportant ?

"Animals do eat each other because usually they have to in order to survive - we don't have to do that and this is the ethical standpoint of a lot of vegans. "

Right, this is a logical position up to a point but it is an artificial one. Which is fine in itself - a lot of things we do we manage by artificial means -but it is not the case that it is a simple, back to nature, just let things be sort of operation.

Veganism is not possible without relying on a variety of ecological disasters, such as large scale industrial farming and the destructions of ecosystems and the poisonous pesticides that go with that; and you can forget living on local, seasonal food in many parts of the world. This is fine if you accept that these problems go with treating animals as equivalent to people, this is a logical position with a certain amount of interior logic (I don't agree with it). But it is not a short cut to saving the world. There are no organic vegan fertilsers that deal with the nitrogen issue.

Yes it is also the case that industrial animal farming is an ecological disaster, that's no good either of course. but at least in principle if you eat animal and animal produce, you can eat year round local food.

The level of anger and entrenchedness on this thread is understandable but it is very dangerous. It is not healthy for everyone to be a vegan and simpliyfing the issues in this black and white way makes it all a matter of personal identity which is very dangerous for a 14 year old who genuinely might not be physically well on a vegan diet.

Please try to approach this in a way which will allow her to manage the subtleties of all this.

btw on a very sperficial note lots of girls go vegan because they think they will go skinny but a carb diet bulks you up

"Personally I would let her get on with it, not make any kind of a fuss or big deal and just treat it as totally unimportant ?"

exactly - but be relaxed and open to talking about the issues from a position of sympathy. don't polarise

It's not an argument and it doesn't "rest on one celebrity".

Gwynneth Paltrow is an example. A pretty good one because she had the resources, the money, and (so she thought) the knowledge base to make sure that she got the necessary nutrients from other sources.

You do what you like, eat what you like. I am not trying to change your diet. It is admirable that you care so much for other animals, but there is a price to pay for the dietary restrictions that you impose on yourselves unless you take the necessary supplements.

"I don't begrudge a fox eating a baby chick but I do have a massive issue with humans throwing them live into a grinder (purely as they have no value to the meat industry)"

I would have an issue with that, too, but honestly don't think it is widespread practice. It is a waste of resources. Most farmers would just let them grow a bit and then eat them.

I am an omnivore, and I eat meat. Just like some animals would eat me if given the chance. That doesn't mean I would sit down and stick pins in their eyes or otherwise torture them. It is not a binary choice.

You can't use the same cooking/eating utensils as they have touched meat etc. How is that a 'control issue'? I don't want meat juices/fragments in my dinner. And given that most households surely have more than one wooden spoon, it's hardly an imposition

I don't mean during cooking meat/not meat meals together Maid, obviously I wouldn't expect a vegan to use a wooden spoon that had just stirred meat juices. I mean 'at all' i.e. one of my friends has totally separate cookware and utensils so they don't get used at all by the meat eater. I would consider that odd and if my DS requested that if he was vegan, it wouldn't be happening.

a vegan diet isnt Inherently unhealthy, the reason for health problems are multiple and complex, many meat eaters have osteoporosis.

I am confused Cote, what is the price to be paid for not eating animal products?
Afaik meat consumption is if anything linked to worse health outcomes ?

Gwyneth Paltrow May not be a relevant example though as where's the proof her condition is due to a vegan diet? Most vegans are well clued up on supplements let alone someone with the money and resources like GP, sounds like there must be aggravating factors. So seems like scare mongering to bring it up to be honest.

but honestly don't think it is widespread practice

You must be thinking of some rural idyll rather than the horrific reality of modern day meat production

"I would have an issue with that, too, but honestly don't think it is widespread practice. It is a waste of resources. Most farmers would just let them grow a bit and then eat them."

Sorry what is this based on? Got any sources? It is widespread practice as far as my research shows. Think about it anyway, an egg farmer has not got the space to rear non egg producing chickens.

YAB a bit U, she's old enough to know her own mind & you really cannot force her, it will push her away from you & DH big time :(

However I can see that you are concerned for her health, or I would be saying YABVVVVU

No need to worry if you treat it as a nutritional learning exercise & let her know that you will only support her IF she eats a properly well balanced diet & this really isn't difficult without meat or animal products

Will she eat eggs for example ?? I know plenty "vegan" who will eat locally sourced proper free range eggs, but nothing else

If so a good nutritional breakfast is for example ...

1 egg, blitzed with 1 banana, with a tablespoon of sesame & sunflower seeds

Cook this batter as you would drop scones or pancakes & serve with black treacle or molasses - this is a nutritional powerhouse, with plenty of calcium & iron too -

if she won't eat "kind eggs" replace the egg with almond milk & add a bit of flour & oats too

Give her Spirulina (compressed pills, not powder)as a supplement, this is packed full of iron, (more than liver) B12 & much, much more

My daughter has grown up practically vegan as she is vegetarian, but had problems tolerating dairy & eggs too for a while, so she often rarely ate either. Despite this & long term ongoing stomach trouble meaning that a lot of what she ate flew straight through her, she has never tested as nutritionally deficient in anything

Cote, I think you are genuinely deluded. It's fine by me I haven't got time to try and educate everyone but since you come on here to defend meat/egg/dairy consumption ...
(with some pretty bizarre arguments - I mean what has infant mortality rates in humans got to do with artificially inseminating cows against their will, ie raping them, then stealing their babies I'm order for us to drink their breast milk intended for their young!?)
... maybe you should research a bit more.

Deluded?

Maybe you need to read that post better to understand why we were talking about having one baby after another and losing them.

And artificial insemination is rape now, is it?

Maybe we should provide cows with lubricant, soft music, and make sure they have great and exclusive sex with the love of their lives. Should we also put them on the pill so they don't have to have calves? Who will pay to provide this life for cows, do you think?

Oh the irony of you calling anyone "deluded"

Deluded was referring to your comments on the chicks being thrown into grinders. You haven't responded to the comments on that yet.

Have read that post a couple of times and still baffled. Again, what has infant mortality rates or "having one baby after another and losing them" got to do with the way we use and abuse cows. Maybe you were just pondering rather than defending it actually.....but I still don't think it's comparable.

If I held you down and artificially inseminated you against your will that would be called rape.

I believe the rape of humans and animals is wrong.

You're being rather sick now...no one is arguing for a more comfortable sex life for the cows...like I said you've got some bizarre arguments

Cote are you a dietician or doctor? Just wondering as you seem so absolutely certain of what you are saying and I'm wondering where your evidence comes from. Has Gwyneth Paltrow officially said that her illness was caused by veganism? I know 2 lifelong meat eaters with osteoporosis so it wouldn't occur to me to jump to that conclusion unless of course someone in the medical profession with full access to all the relevant information had said it.

Vezzie - I know and understand that but at the end of the day it is up to each individual what they want to buy and eat. I have my own personal reasons for not wanting to support the industries that use animals just as you have your own reasons for your choices. It is strange reading your post about the anger on this thread as it seems to me that the majority is coming from the meat eaters and the vegans are trying to offer advice and being attacked and judged!

I just don't believe certain things that (many) vegans believe, and (some) vegan arguments make no sense unless you agree that

• humans and animals are ethically equivalent. I don't believe that at all
• veganism will be healthy for all humans. I don't believe that either, from experience - though I am quite happy to believe from others' experience that it can be healthy for some humans
• veganism is necessarily the best thing for the planet. I don't believe that can be the case for 7 billion people, although it is hard to think of a way of feeding 7 billion people that is not an ecological disaster

I am just pointing these things out because I want it to be clear that not being vegan doesn't mean you don't understand things, or take no ethical respsonsibility. It just means you disagree with vegans about the axioms. And maybe you have come to do so over time - perhaps veganism is a sort of universal starting point to considering these things, and a place where some stay as it works for them (morally, intellectually, ethically) and a plce where others move on from? it has an attractive purity