Is this discrimination? (Disability)

[BeyondPreparedForHell]

I already had a thread earlier in detail, this is just for one quick question.

Is it unreasonable to complain about discrimination if a disabled person is not able to access presale tickets for a concert, instead they have to order direct through the venue on release date?

(The way it works for a festival with the same company, is you buy the tickets and then prove you need them after. If you don't, you lose them.)

When I brought it up in complaint, the bloke on the phone spoke to me like I was a fruit loop. Said it is in no way discriminatory.

I'm thinking of sad-facing to the DM...

What do you think? And if I'm right, what do you recommend doing/who should I contact?

If only standing is going for presale then it's fine, if sitting seats which you could access and sit in are for presale but you are barred due to your disability then that would be wrong IMO.

If there are x amount of spaces for wheel chairs plus one cater then it doesn't matter that they don't go on presale - just that all the spaces are free to book by eligible customers surely that is fine? Especially if it is 2 days.

Really by wheelchair spaces I guess I mean anyone who would not be able to sit in a regular seat sorry if I termed it wrong

At the risk of going around in circles
While people are free to disagree all they want, i dont think they are getting my issue? Or maybe they just disagree?
I think i've managed to get my point down to one paragraph...

Members of a website got to book in advance of general sale, giving them an advantage over those who had to book on general sale day. Disabled members of the website could book early if they really wanted to, just not for accessible seating. They could not choose to take their walking aids into the standing area, so there was no way they could use the bonus given to them. So the members of the website who had additional requirements lost out on the advantage given to the ablebodied members.

Yes? No?

Op - aibu
Posters - yes
Op - but, but, but, no
Posters - yes

sorry!

So actually if you could sit ,in a regular seat it isn't fair that because you can't walk to the seat you can't book on presale as they would need to make arrangements - surely if you are booking presale they could allocate you easily a seat in an accessible position to make entry and exit easy - rather than trying to accommodate you when lots of seats have gone. It isn't fair and it makes no sense - presale gives them extra time to accommodate the needs of the op and others in her situation rather than in the hustle of the main ticket sales.

I think I've changed my mind. I never thought about booking in groups with non-disabled friends. That scenario never occurred to me.

Raltheraffe, what you went through was horrible but it doesn't trivialise what you went through to recognise there are different levels of discrimination. What you experienced was direct discrimination, which is what most people think IS discrimination. What's being debated here is indirect discrimination.
It still falls under the Equality Act but isn't as obvious or horrible as what you experienced, obviously.

It doesn't trivialise what you went through to recognise there are different levels of discrimination. I say this as someone who also lost their job through discrimination, because my employers thought I should be magically better the instant I finished my cancer treatment.

I think it depends on how many accessible spaces the venue will have compared to the likely number of people wanting them. If there's only a couple spaces and someone with a wheelchair is thus much more unlikely than a standing person to get a ticket, it's discrimination.
But if it's a venue that will expand the wheelchair viewing platform to accommodate the numbers of people buying accessible tickets, then a wheelchair user actually has a better chance of getting a ticket and it's not discrimination.
Given that it's usually the venue that has to figure out accessibility around the staging, not the ticket sellers, it's hard to figure out in advance and could probably go either way. I'd guess it's usually not a problem for large stadiums but likely to be difficult for say an old theatre where only a couple spaces can be made accessible.

I only used a wheelchair for a few months, but did have tickets to a gig - I called up Twickenham stadium and they were very happy to swap standing tickets for me and a friend for ones on the wheelchair platform, which apparently they just made longer as required.

It's similar to theatre booking policies for captioned performances - to be sure of being able to view the captions, you have to call the accessible booking line (cue fun of deaf people having to phone...). There's usually only one performance that's captioned, so they need to make it as likely as possible that anyone needing captions can get a ticket to that performance. So usually a large proportion of the theatre is blocked from general sale for that perf until a few days before, which means I often get messages from friends asking if I'd like to see a sold-out show and could I try getting tickets. Works about a quarter of the time.

SomeSort I was thinking the same thing. This question has been bugging me because it's not 100% clear cut. I think though if accessible seats are booked through a separate system anyway then this scenario isn't relevant because you'd be making two separate bookings anyway?

I would do as a pp suggested and contact the equalities commission. They will hopefully be able to advise.

Beyond phone the EHRC, they will be able to confirm if it is discrimination or not. They are really helpful, they helped me a lot when DS2 was being discriminated against at school.

Being able to use the pre-sale is a clear advantage. It will be easier to get through, book for a group and make other arrangements.
There is no justification for that advantage not to be open to people with disabilities.

I think someone has already said this but what you describe OP is indirect discrimination. I'm a trade union rep so clearly know everything

Thanks, i will investigate the ehrc in the morning :)

There doesn't seem to be enough wheelchair/accessible seating at many venues. Even at very large venues. It's crap. Plenty of standard tickets left at times but no space for bring your own! I've missed out a few times lately too.

A fanclub presale on the 42 spaces available at Wembley arena (for example) could mean they sell out before the actual release date.
Releasing a small percentage sounds fairer in theory, but compared to the number of able bodied fans that can purchase presale tickets, the numbers would still woefully low.

Such a quick sellout indicates that more disabled spaces are required at gigs, perhaps on a system where standard seats can slotted in if demand isn't there for them (with disabled tickets only available until maybe 4 weeks before gig to allow being sold elsewhere).
An increase in number may put an end to the carer goes free arrangement many larger venues have though.

There may be genuine reasons why they have to stagger the sale of tickets. Personally I believe it could be a commercial decision. An accessibility seat physically takes up more space than a standing ticket holder, just as BB parking spots are wider than standard ones.
From a commercial point of view the concert organizer will want as many people packed into the venue as possible. If a disabled space uses up the same area as two standing fans they will only get half the revenue.

Sounds like indirect discrimination which is just as bad as direct.

Ralf that's not true. There is always dedicated disabled seating both for chairs and mobility problems. If you are able bodied they wouldn't stick two full payers in a chair space.

raltheraffe then that would be discrimination.
It is not acceptable for a venue to say that they cannot afford sufficient accessible seating for commercial reasons.
It would be like a car park cutting down the number of disabled spaces so they can fit more standard spaces in. They have a legal duty to make their service accessible to people with disabilities.