To talk to the head about music teaching at my dc's school?

[sorryforher]

Both dc's do music outside of school, though neither is in any way precocious or particularly advanced (ds1 grade 4 two instruments, ds 2 is grade 2 in two instruments). Over the past few weeks and months, both my dc's (year 5 and 6) have come home telling me how much they dislike whole class music lessons at school - how uninspiring they are. I try to be positive and encourage them to make the best of the lessons, but I know that this teacher has got a reputation for incompetence - the performances she's organised at school in particular have been really, really poorly managed. Awful - painful.

Recently the dc's have been telling me that they're allowed to not take part and to help a TA with stapling, or another non-music related activity instead. When I ask them why I'm told it's because they already know how to do what the other children are doing. DS1 in particular never gets given anything to do - he is asked to help other children sometimes as far as I can tell but nothing else interesting or challenging.

The school is SATS focused to the nth degree, and music is not really on anyone's radar.

Would it be wrong of me to raise this with the head? To point out that my children's learning needs aren't being acknowledged and planned for? I think it's really very poor.

I would be cross if my child was being used to assist a TA in admin duties rather than take part in a class activity.

YANBU - no child should be excluded from a subject lesson because they already know how to do it. Do other children not do any maths because they already know their times tables? Or get asked to do stapling instead of reading? Seems unlikely - music shouldn't be treated any differently.

They might still find it boring - that's maybe not avoidable if the teacher is pretty useless, but they certainly shouldn't be told they can't take part.

But why does a school tolerate poor music teaching?

This is a school with a really ambitious head and a good OFSTED.

There must be lots of talented music teachers out there - why do the school put up with poor teaching?

Is she the class teacher or a dedicated music teacher?

Oh dear; it sounds really rubbish for your kids, but please remember that the class teacher (probably not a music specialist) is being asked to teach music to a whole class of very varied abilities.

The teacher's performance (and now her pay) are mostly related to SATs results, so no wonder that so many teachers are focusing their time and energy on increasingly complex maths and literacy lessons. Something usually has to give, and I'm afraid it's very often the interesting - but rarely viewed as vital - lessons such as music, languages, art and PSHE.

Maybe you could volunteer as a parent helper with producing the next performance, or even during the music lessons?

I am a music teacher that USED to have to do these whole class teaching projects. They don't work. All music teachers I am in contact with them are fully aware they do not work. It is not possible to teach a whole class an instrument to any decent standard. Even if after the project has ended some pupils would like to continue to learn the instrument (which is the ultimate aim for music services) the technique has to be UNLEARNT before it can be then taught quickly. This is a far longer process than simply being able to teach correctly in the first place.

I have probably mis understood as I am talking about instrumental whole class teaching rather than classroom whole class teaching

I wouldn't be thrilled at my child doing admin.

Poor music teaching? It would depend. Is this a music teacher or a class teacher teaching music?

Yanbu! And fwiw, I think two grade 4s in year 6 is pretty impressive! As is 2 grade twos in year 5.

Sadly,it happens. I had sub standard class music teaching all the way through school. (I was in an a level class of 9 where only two of us could read music ffs) Luckily my school had a large number of well run band activities and I went to a music school a couple of times in the week for bands etc too. I knew my teachers were trying their hardest lower down the school so didn't mind too much. But this is because they would give me little composition projects etc to work on instead. At a level my teacher was useless and it was very frustrating. My friend and I taught ourselves.

Perhaps they could start working towards music theory? Ds1 will need to do it soon anyway to progress past grade 5, and you can get little work books very easily. Officially you can take the exam at every grade level but most people just take the required grade 5 theory exam and leave it at that. They could sit quietly in the corner doing that and it ewould actually be useful.

No, it's a statutory requirement that all KS2 children have at least one term of learning an instrument, so may well be instrument learning. Even if it's a general music lesson, you're still going to have kids with years of music theory and some who don't know a treble clef from the Walls ice-cream sign.

Is this whole class instrumental, or general music teaching? Your DC should be able to take part in the lesson. If it's general music, really can't understand why they would have "already done it" - my DC do stuff like music appreciation and recognising how changes in music set the mood - things that you would have a view on even if you were a top flight musician!!

If it's whole class instrumental teaching, I can see that if the rest of the class is learning to read music, they are going to find it dull and maybe helping others is the way to go? DS did a whole year of entry level keyboard in his whole class instrumental music lessons - despite having already played for 2 years - and he enjoyed learning from a different perspective from his individual lessons+ I think having to explain things to his classmates helped his own understanding.

Incidentally, do you know the general standard of music at your DC's school. Because I'm not sure there is a single child at my DC's primary school who has achieved over grade 2 in any instrument, and most don't play anything.

I disagree about whole class music projects, and if that is what is happening in this case, then the teacher should be writing harder parts for them.

But I think this is about general classroom music teaching in primary. I'm a music specialist, leading inset for non specialist music teachers this week funnily enough. I can tell you now, that if the teacher is not a music specialist they will be finding music very hard to teach. They certainly won't understand how they can include your kids, which they absolutely should be doing...

I absolutely believe that all primaries should have the input of a music specialist music offers so much to children....but I'd have to get on my soap box ...and that's for another thread.

Yes, I would go in. I'd be really honest and say that you know that teaching music in primary, especially at upper primary is very hard for a non specialist teacher, but your kids are losing out and they are not being stretched....and that would simply not be an issue for a specialist who would be able to differentiate the work appropriately. I'm actually at a loss how your kids are not involved in composing...their ability should be irrelevant here...children work to the level they are able to.

The other issue that will arrive on the inset this week is that teachers simply don't have time to plan and prepare for music with all the other hoops they have to jump through. Most non specialists want to open a music resource and teach from that, which will also not be challenging enough for children who have been learning instruments for several years.

I would be asking questions really, and if the school can't deliver the music teaching in an appropriate way for all pupils, they need to look for an outside provider really. But that all comes down to budget.....so. As you can see it's a very frustrating tricky situation. I have a lot of empathy for these teachers,who come into inset like rabbits in headlights.....it's gutting that more specialists aren't able to be use because of money constraints.

But yes, I would be going and having a gentle chat. I support my own child's school by regulary hooking up with their music co ordinator for chats and support. That's the other thing...who co ordinates music in the school? Dont expect them to be a music specialist, (it's often the subject everyone avoids volunteering for!)but that also might be a good starting point.

If I can help anymore, please ask x

YANBU I raised exactly this issue with DS 's teacher this week. He is in year 5 and is grade 4 piano, and working through grade 4 theory. The only lessons at school he is bored in is music as they are learning notation and it's very basic for him.
The teacher agreed it was an issue as there is a big difference in the musical knowledge of children within the class - the school are going to try to address this. After all in maths they give the faster workers extension activities.
I have to say though, it is an independent school.

I just don't understand how schools can teach music really, other than singing. I went to a very musical secondary school where I took part in lots of activities but the whole class music lessons pre-GCSE level were ridiculous - I and one or two others were at grade 5+, about half the class had learnt an instrument at some point or were at a lower level, and the other half had no musical knowledge at all. How are you supposed to teach to such a wide range of abilities? I used to sit absolutely bored out of my mind.

Me624 I so agree! I really think that either music should be streamed or that an effort should be made to teach all children an instrument.

Thank you everyone. This is whole class music teaching (not instrumental teaching) by a music teacher - she doesn't have any general teaching duties or her own form, just takes the children for music. She is a music specialist, but I think she's quite weak as a teacher and as a musician.

"Incidentally, do you know the general standard of music at your DC's school."

It's a state primary in a disadvantaged area and very few children do instrumental tuition outside of school. My ds, at grade 4, is the most able instrumentalist at the school.

That said, I think there is loads of talent - singing especially. Many of the children attend gospel churches and are AMAZING confident singers. When you go on a school trip the quality of singing on the coach is mind boggling, and is usually started spontaneously by various children. :-)

There used to be an amazing music specialist teacher at the school - she was there for the first 5 years I had children attending the school. She put on the best end of year and Christmas performances with lots of children doing solos. She wrote most of the music herself and was a really gifted teacher and musician. The shows were genuinely entertaining - she really knew how to coax an unselfconscious performance out of a huge range of children. She left after being treated quite badly by the school and is much missed. I'm gutted that they've replaced her with someone so weak. :-(

"But this is because they would give me little composition projects etc to work on instead."

This is exactly the sort of thing I would like her to be giving my dc's. How hard does it have to be? She could use KS3 teaching resources - there must be loads of stuff out there.

It's definitely worth asking. The worst they can say is "no" but then they'll have to justify why they are failing to educate. Win win!

Absolutely you should go in. No child should be excluded from any lesson because they've already done something.

I do wonder though whether the lessons and the performances should be treated as separate things? A class music lesson is part of the curriculum, but performances are not, and many schools don't do very much in that regard.

If it's someone - as you say - who comes to each class just to teach music, then, yes, I think she should be expected to have a good grasp, and yes I would speak to senior management at the school.
I have more sympathy with the ridiculous idea that all Primary school Teachers are supposed to be able to teach specialist subjects that they've not even studied themselves .... music, MFLs, PE, Art, etc.

sorryforher

Unfortunately music isn't a core subject and as long as the school are meeting their obligation there isn't much you can do.
Your dc should be in the class though even if they do find it boring, music is still part of the curriculum.
There are also many primary teachers who don't know very much about music and chances are your children will know more than the class teacher anyway.
You do have my sympathy though as we experienced something similar but for dd it was all the wasted time on subjects she could learn at home, so she left school for H.ed.