to think that a sex tourist destination is not a 'haven'

[AgaPanthers]

Background:
Ray Cole, aged 69, spent 3 weeks in prison in Morocco after being arrested for homosexual acts.

He had gone there to meet a 20 year old Moroccan man, whom he had met on Facebook, and evidently later had sex with.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-29560222

There has been an outcry at this.

So the BBC has penned this piece

"There was a time when Morocco was renowned as a haven for gay Americans and Britons, who fled restrictions in their own countries to take advantage of its relaxed atmosphere."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29566539

If you actually read the story, it's very clear that Americans and Britons were not going to Morocco to fuck each other, but rather to abuse young boys.

This is detailed in these authors' writings.

e.g., from the Orton Diaries:

Went to dinner with Nigel ... He said El Aioun was the place for boys. 'I like young boys' he said. 'How young?' I said. ... 'About fourteen.' 'Oh perfectly natural,' I said. 'I think I have finally settled for fifteen.... I lust for Mustapha and he can't be more than fourteen.... I shall have him in a cabin one day. If his prick is as undeveloped as last year, I shall know that he is not fourteen.' 'What will you do then?' Nigel said. 'I shall leave it for a year or two.'

and
'That boy is good for fuck', Mohammed said... 'Quel age?' I said.... 'Perhaps ten', he said. He went on to say that the boy had been had by most of the male population in the town. 'You like this boy for l'amour?'.... 'Ok', I said.

Surely you would not describe say Cambodia as a 'haven' for men looking to abuse young girls? Why is this terminology ok with boys?

It is equally disgusting and immoral to abuse any child, male or female, yanbu.

Sharing your indignation.

The Orton Diaries were written in c 1949 - why are you quoting from them as if they are todays thought processes?

Yes I don't understand why you're linking the piece you quote to two adult men having sex?

If you actually read the story, it's very clear that Americans and Britons were not going to Morocco to fuck each other, but rather to abuse young boys

No it doesn't.

For starters Joe Orton is not representative of all gay men.

And not all gay men travel or travelled to Morocco to have sex with underage boys.

Queer Tangier is legendary amongst my older gay friends (who are old enough to remember the persecution of gay men and women here).
NONE of them are paedophiles. They went to loll in the sun with their mates and smoke a lot of dope.

That BBC piece you link to is actually a very interesting article about the appeal of Tangier to literary figures from William Burroughs to Paul Bowles to Mark Twain. I heard Rick Stein discussing this on tv yesterday actually.

How do you make the leap to suggesting it is all about predatory gay men travelling to Morocco with the sole intent of abusing young boys?

Not c 1949, actually May 1967. And no, not today's thought processes, but I was just making it clear that the 'haven' the BBC article (written in 2014) describes was in fact a place for Westerners to go and abuse boys. It was about commerce, not tolerance.

And 1967 overlaps with the likes of Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris, and other abusers who are being brought to justice TODAY. Authors such as Lewis Carroll, who died in the 19th century, have been the subject of much discussion as to whether they abused young girls.

There was a time when Morocco was renowned as a haven for gay Americans and Britons, who fled restrictions in their own countries to take advantage of its relaxed atmosphere.

Just how old is this article? Seeing as homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967 !!

yabvvu to link the story of an adult gay man having consensual sex to child abuse

Joe Orton was murdered in 1967. His diaries were penned long before that

Literary figures like William Burroughs? Who also went to Tangier to abuse young boys.

theamericanreader.com/23-october-1955-william-s-burroughs-to-allen-ginsberg-jack-kerouac/

"The Italian school is just opposite, and I stand for hours watching the boys with my 8-power field glasses. Curious feeling of projecting myself, like I was standing over there with the boys, invisible earthbound ghost, torn with disembodied lust. They wear shorts, and I can see the goose pimples on their legs in the chill of the morning, count the hairs. Did I ever tell you about the time Marv and I paid two Arab kids sixty cents to watch them screw each other—we demanded semen too, no half-assed screwing. So I asked Marv: “Do you think they will do it?” and he says: “I think so. They are hungry.” They did it. Made me feel sorta like a dirty old man…"

There is a fuller account here, in which it explains how William Burroughs used this to entice fellow literary figure (also cited in the BBC article) Allen Ginsberg to Tangier:

books.google.co.uk/books?id=ydBlAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT258#v=onepage&q&f=false

I don't understand it either- what has the text got to do with a adult homosexual relationship?

"Joe Orton was murdered in 1967. His diaries were penned long before that"

This is simply incorrect:

www.methuen.co.uk/the-orton-diaries/b/199

"From December 1966 until his murder in August 1967, Joe Orton kept a series of diaries, which are one of the most candid and unfettered accounts of that remarkable era."

Who cares if it's 1944 or 1967? What does it have to do with this gentleman?

Please quote the part of the BBC article you have cited which stipulates that Morocco is used by Western gay men looking for underage sex.

I think you might struggle with that because it basically doesn't... does it?

You seem to have a very dodgy axe to grind about gay men and have decided to use some crappy Joe Orton and some blurb from the Beeb to prop up your prejudices.

Suggesting that the dated ramblings of Orton and Burroughs are in any way representative of all gay men is bonkers. It is like suggesting that the sexual proclivities of Jimmy Saville and Fred West are representative of straight men FFS.

The story about the British man being arrested did make me think of Orton's diaries - although of course consenting adults is v different

Haven just means a place of safety or refuge . It doesn't have a moral element. A psychopathic, murdering donkey worrier can seek refuge or safe haven. Other people might not think he/she deserves it but none the less they can seek it.

If said psychopath finds somewhere that tolerates his worrying ways, then it is a haven for him/her.

"Please quote the part of the BBC article you have cited which stipulates that Morocco is used by Western gay men looking for underage sex. "

The article is about the Morocco (or Tangier specifically) that WAS. Not about Morocco today.

"Suggesting that the dated ramblings of Orton and Burroughs are in any way representative of all gay men is bonkers. "

I never said it was. The article goes on a pilgrimage to William Burroughs' bedroom FFS. William Burroughs is the focus of an article on this lost 'freedom'.

'If said psychopath finds somewhere that tolerates his worrying ways, then it is a haven for him/her.'

Well yes that's true. You could say, based on the text, it was a haven for gay paedophiles, for example. Or a haven for gay sex tourists.

But it's a bit odd, isn't it, to say that it was a haven for gay men, and then focus on men who were there to abuse boys for pennies.

Maybe the use of the term and the blending of two very different situations eg homosexuality and paedophilia, actually says more about the perceptions and prejudices of the author.