Is this school being unreasonable? Or is this common practice??

[benetint]

We recently relocated to an area with supposedly one of the best state schools in the country (results wise and ofsted wise). The general local opinion seems to be 'wow, you are so lucky to have moved to our village, our school is AMAZING' however when you talk to people privately you get a somewhat dismal view. For example:

• my hairdresser (with dyslexia) was recommended to go to another school (she thinks so the overall league tables weren't affected)
• a neighbour's child (with mild special needs) was told not to apply as they would not be able to support him
• another neighbour's child has just started A levels there and got a D in their first test - they were told 'either drop the subject or pay for an hour's private tuition a week, orherwise there are lots of other people waiting for your place' They are heavily oversubscribed
• most worrying, a child from our church with moderate special needs was apparently put into a room for half an hour with some 'posh, academic type kids' who had been bullying him, unsupervised. They provoked him until he snapped and hit one of them and he was excluded permanently, again saving their precious league tables.

It just shows that nothing beats visiting a school on a normal working day.

This resonates as my sister lives a stones throw from an outstanding Ofsted rated primary school. Her son has been attending the pre-school and she was intending for him to go to the main school in September (they had already advised he should stay in pre-school for another year due to attention issues). They had an assessment recently and the school has advised my sister to apply elsewhere if she cannot solve his 'issues' within the next eight months.

I think they are acting like a selective Private school and suspect they basically don't want her son in the school incase he affects their results table. Terrible business in my opinion.

Bird, I'm so sorry to hear that.

All I can honestly say, hand on heart, is that ofsted generally get it right in my experience. I'm saying that as a teacher not a parent.

Generally. Sometimes you'll get a 2 (good) leaning towards a 3; other times the school is deemed good but really should have been outstanding.

No, dawn, I didn't say that.

I said you can't have children punching one another.

But it was explained daisies that the child had been pushed into it. Under normal circumstances I would agree, however, a child with additional needs, pushed into something is a different story.

Thanks, Daisies. Luckily (?), the person who said it did so in front of the inclusion manager from the area, who then fully backed the child's application to a different, oversubscribed, outstanding school that was prepared to meet his Statement, and indeed help him to A*/As at GCSE, AS and A-level so yah boo sucks to first school.

The thing is, in other ways it is indeed a good school. But that one member of staff kind of put us off it.

Statistics never really reflect individual experiences.

I totally believe this.

I have personal experience of something very similar.

It's crap, but some schools seem to get away with it because after all, who wants their DC to go to a school where they are obviously not wanted.

So their DC go to the school down the road with great SEN support - and the non inclusive school look better because they get better results.

Dawn, I can see that and obviously it doesn't remotely excuse or justify others' behaviour - I don't have additional needs but I did get bullied at school (just a generally geeky kid!) and I can remember that rage and desperation building up inside me - it's awful. I get it

But at the same time, I would back a school that effectively said they had a zero tolerance approach to violence. I worked in a school like that once and it was absolutely littered with problems - racism was one, but children used to have arguments on the estate and bring them into school and while violence against staff was rare it certainly wasn't unheard of and quite a few teachers got caught in the cross fire when breaking up fights and it's utterly terrifying.

The new HTs stance was 'no violence, no excuses' - this is a place where you feel safe. It worked.

There were some 'casualties' along the way; I remember one boy who was actually very nice losing it under circumstances not that dissimilar to the ones described above, the exact details escape me but a fight ensued in a technology room and he was permanently excluded. Everyone (including the HT) was regretful but overall we all felt safe for the first time in - well, a while!

So that's why I answered in the way I did. I certainly don't think their behaviour was remotely acceptable but I do sometimes think the only way schools can be safe places is to have the strong message that we don't talk with our fists (or feet, or heads for that matter!)

It may be true, it may not.

In my personal experience the sought after schools are always slagged off by some in the local community for being full of 'brats', 'posh kids who all have tutoring that's why results are so good', and that 'school doesn't support SEN'.

It's always said about my three dd's excellent state secondary. We've found quite the opposite.

It's often sour grapes and jealousy.

BUT agree you need to visit, look at total score of school, ask about their includsion and SEN policies, get a feel for it etc.

The A'level one is the least believable. Yes they could be told they need to pull their socks up, or drop the course (especially now - when there may still be time for them to take another subject instead). But the school will not be able to "fill" the place from someone on a waiting list.

I would look at the school, and talk to them. Do not be afraid of awkward questions.

I have heard horror stories about just about every school in my town, they are all okay schools. I have also heard the same horror stories about my DCs school, that I heard before I went to secondary school some 50 miles and 30+ years ago, and the same ones my mother heard before going to secondary, a long time before that.

I can only give you my experience of sending my DC to an outstanding primary school (property prices in catchment ridiculously high) - it was, not putting too fine a point on it, a DISASTER. Have posted about this several times over the years

Both my DC have SEN, one Mild and one more complex (ASD) and not known/diagnosed at time of entry into school. With my DS (ASD) we ended up moving him in year 4 to another primary as 'outstanding' school completely unsupportive and refused assistance in helping us getting a statement. He transferred to a school graded 'improvement required' but was much more nurturing and understanding. With the new school's full backing he had a statement within a year and is now at a specialist school. If we had left him at outstanding primary school he would not have got his statement and have had to transfer to mainstream secondary which would have been disastrous.

My DD has Auditory Processing Disorder which was formally diagnosed in year 5, when the school admitted they had 'tried everything' and 'didn't know what else they could do' (no spaces in other primaries for her) so we ended up taking her out of school two afternoons a week for one year for specialist tuition at £50 per session, completely wiping out any savings we had (which we don't regret and only mentioning it here to highlight the desperation/lengths we needed to go to help close the huge gaps that she had in her learning of the basics) she was working at a level 2 when she entered year 6.

I guess what I am trying to say is please don't take OFSTED findings as gospel, the school could show on paper to OFSTED that x,y & z were being done to help my DC but in practice they werent.

Am I bitter - yes, will I forget it - No but, now they are both out of Primary (just) and in Secondary schools that are right for them as individuals we are now moving on and trying to put the whole mess behind us.

I think that more than a few unscrupulous head teachers claim not to be able to support SEN children to protect their results and reputation. It's the way they are graded and judged to be performing that needs to change.
I think go and have a look OP.

ds1 terrified our local grammar by having the audacity to pass the eleven plus exam. After they sat on the results for weeks to try and avoid admitting him they eventually agreed to a meeting with the SEN team and his current HT. During this meeting they made it quite clear that they would not give him any support despite the LEA SEN officer telling them he would come with full hours TA support including breaks and lunchtimes and his current HT assuring them that with appropriate support they would have no problems with him. They got what they wanted as we did not pursue the application but the attitude stinks.

You can tell a lot about a school by their attitude to children with SEN and their effectiveness at and willingness to support them.

I don't know if it is common practice, but there is an FE college near us which is always quite high up in the league tables.

They have a policy where 'underperforming students' are threatened with having to pay for their own A-level exam fees. The college claim this motivates them into working harder/doing their course work/not messing around in class.
A cynic could say that this means that underperformers who pay are classed as 'independent' students by the exam board and are then not included in the league tables, along with mature/home schooled students etc who turn up to use the invigilated exam halls after home study...

I have just watched this happen in on of our local schools and I can quite believe the stories you have been told.

In order to top the league tables and get the figures required for an outstanding Ofsted they have to get shot of the low achievers and the trouble makers.

The head at our local school has done exactly this. It was clearly planned. I even heard her once telling a child that she didn't want children like him in her school. There was no misinterpretation or misunderstanding. She meant it.

You can tell a lot about a school by their attitude to children with SEN and their effectiveness at and willingness to support them.

This ^

I can believe it.

When I looked around our local Outstanding Infant school when considering schools for DD2 who has a full statement it was made quite clear to me that she wouldn't be welcome there. Despite the fact she would have come with a reasonable pot of money to pay for her support because of her 30 hours funding.

The school seemed to be proud of churning out little automatons who got good SATS results and didn't cause the staff too much bother. Awful place.

I'm suprised that you're surprised!

Daisies I too was bullied at school for similar reasons, I'm sorry for that, it's bloody awful.
I think because I have children with additional needs I find it difficult to accept that a zero tolerance approach in ALL circumstances is the way to go. Having said that, I can understand how you feel. I am lucky in that I am rural, schools are small and fights are rare, and work wise, I was a lecturer so violence tends to be restricted to the rugger pitch!

Speaking as an ex teacher with experience in deprived areas and 'naice' areas, yes in a deprived area you get more money thrown at the school re special needs and sometimes even a social worker allocated to that school if its a really bad area like my teaching practice school in Derby. (tho that may have changed since i left). 'Naice' areas its far more survival of the fittest and lack of knowledge re special needs provision, LEA process and budgets is rampant. In the nice area i taught in my Headmaster spent the extra budget we got for a very disabled child on .... mugs with the schools name on. I, not knowing the extra budget provision, was paying for the childs special grip pencils out of my own salary. Visit the school, ask specific questions re provision for bright or special needs children, then decide.

Are state schools actually allowed to be selective though outside of catchment allocations etc? I have a nearly two year old so have no experience outside of my own education. I understand that some Grammar schools have 11+ in place but I thought the idea of state funded education was it for everyone and was inclusive. I'm living in cloud cuckoo land aren't i?

I think you need to find out more from the school - ask them about their SEN provision. If those stories are true they are very concerning but they may not be true.

I'm surprised by the assumption on this thread that it's a common thing for schools to try to manipulate an Outstanding OFSTED result by avoiding taking children with SEN. The OFSTED report for my son's primary school (Outstanding at last inspection) specifically mentions that they have higher than usual numbers of SEN and that these children make good progress. In fact they're building a unit integrated with the school for children on the autistic spectrum. So I'd say that dealing well with SEN should actually boost a school's OFSTED results.

I have personal experience of a child with ASD (not dxed at the time) being bullied out of their nearest 'outstanding' primary by the H.T/staff. The parents took him out after only a few months. What that child experienced was so awful that you would think I was exaggerating if I posted about it. So I won't.

Some years later the parents discovered that there was another child (teen) with ASD living near to them whose parents had stuck it out at that school. His mental health was so bad he hadn't been able to attend secondary and hadn't left his home for years.