to draw your attention to MN'ers being threatened with court for posting

[gordyslovesheep]

By Samaritan's Purse

I know I'm not the only one

who else have they decided to silence?

It's quite interesting that they dislike criticism so much

Private Eye, Page 13, Legal News
yadah, yadah yadah
However as the letters prompted one of the busiest discussions on Mumsnet's infamous "Am I Being Unreasonable" Forum, it was clear that the charity's efforts to shut parents up had thoroughly backfired

I am certainly not their apologist , but it feels rather unfair to pick on them when every C of E church in the land has the bible in there saying gay sex is a sin and that Christianity should spread all over the planet.

If you believe your religion is right it is surely better to persuade people to join it than not.

I certainly accept that some cults over the years have sought donations without saying they are the XYZ group.

The act of giving to others even if you are an atheist is a good idea to each children. Assuming the shoe boxes don't end up in landfill and instead go to children who would otherwise not get a Christmas present then I do not see the harm as long as parents know it is about Christmas and for one particular branch of religion.

The C of E and the Catholics with their hundreds of years of Christian missionaries have made huge efforts to convert native peoples all over the planet from their animist and other religions to Christianity. Spreading the word has always been at the heart of Christianity.

Greengrow
When DCs junior school did it I was a bit meh but went along
UNTIL
I discovered that they reserved the right to unpack the shoeboxes, make them clearly differentiated for the different sexes and add bibles.

My DCs had pointedly made both boxes a tad unisex and are both atheist - thinking they were helping kids
NOT
defining them by gender and forcing a specific message upon them

Do you not see the dishonesty inherent in soliciting schools and churches to fill shoeboxes with toys etc, without telling them how these are going to be used, Greengrow? I am not aware of any other group who seek donations which are going to be used in evangelism without being open about the purpose of the donations.

I am certainly not their apologist , but it feels rather unfair to pick on them when every C of E church in the land has the bible in there saying gay sex is a sin and that Christianity should spread all over the planet.

But does every C of E church hang around outside mosques and promise the kids presents if they come to a service?

Oh great, Private Eye is on board

Greengrow, a lot of what you are saying is why I am hugely suspicious of any organised religion and what has turned me off the religion I grew up with.
I also v much agree that acts of charity ought to be charitable and not linked to proselyting - do missionary work if you must (I'd rather you didn't, but hey ho I can see that if somebody strongly believes that their version of a superstition is the only grace giving one and if one believed that by converting as many of other people of other faiths to ensure ones own ascent to eternal life, then I can see the attraction), but do not 'sneak' it in under the guise of giving disadvantaged children a gift. 'Tis a cheap trick.

I can understand why any religion would want to open the box as it might contain knives or cocaine or an atheist message. Anyway I am not their supporter in any way. The way most of our children can help the poor is become the next Bill Gates or female equivalent because then you gain real power to effect change.

The C of E has done a huge amount of this kind of thing in its past.

i certainly do not however approve of children and parents being deceived.
I also think every mumsnet poster who sends their child to any kind of state UK religious school should go and open a bible and koran and read it for its sexist and anti homosexual messages and the rest because being tempted by the evil fruit - the reward of good exam results in return for the potential capture of their child. Cameron, Gove and Blair have all been so taken in of course. There is a lot of it about.

I have tried three years running to get DS' school (which is in every other respect an excellent school) to kick this bunch of lying, scamming, hand-in-the-till fascists out when it comes to Christmas appeals. Maybe this thread will help me to achieve it.
I am particularly enraged by their dishonest, toxic presence in a school which is hugely multicultural, in a hugely multicultural area. I have pointed out, repeatedly, to the school that it is not appropriate to encourage kids to donate to a charity which calls them and their parents wicked and satanic.
The response has always been waaah, baah, but they're nice people doing a nice thing. It's a big stupidity indicator to think 'But they're Christians' means 'They must be Good People.' While even a militant atheist like me is aware of individual Christians who are genuinely Good People - the ones who are into the loving and caring and sharing side of Christianity rather than the gay-bashing witch-burning war-declaring side - the number of high profile Christian organisations with a very dodgy track record on racism, misoygyny, homophobia and child abuse means that you'd have to be a right dimwit to take 'Christian' as a shorthand term for 'safe and morally upright'.

Oh BTW MNHQ if you're going to wet your knickers over that last post, you can have my name and address. I've got a mate who's a very good lawyer.

SGB that almost sounds like a challenge to "bring it on SP"!

Solidgold
MNHQ will only act if requested by SP
but as this thread is now mentioned in Private eye, SP can do very little about it.
It has been bowlderised at their request.
They thus are on incredibly shaky ground if they ask for it to be pulled.

Same as QE are stuck with the thread about them which is far more damaging than if they had not kicked the hornets nest.

Green you are aware that OCC are not C of E aren't you?

If there was a similar Muslim charity out there - fundamentalist and evangelising like SP, asking for parents to fill shoe boxes to spread their fundamentalist brand of Islam to convert Christian children to Islam - I think this would be a huge story and many parents would be far from happy bunnies.

Crumple, yes I know they are not C of E. I was simply making the point that in every C of E church is a book called the Bible which is sexist and homophobic but people feel happy to enrol in their local C of E school and yet complain about a group which actually does what it says which is seek to convert others to a path it thinks is right. You could argue evangelism is better than the modern C of E. If your religion is right the moral position is to ensure all others convert to it. That is why the evangelical churches are the popular and growing ones on the planet not just in the US but all over the world.

If however you take the stance that the Bible or Koran are wrong as many of us on the thread so then the position is different and we probably want all state religious schools changed so that there is no religion in any state funded school in the UK. That would not stop Cameron's and Blair's children's schools existing - they would just become non religious and if the parents wanted the children in a faith they could teach them it out of school or at Sunday school.

If I were this christmas box lot I would ignore the adverse publicity as suing tends to bring more attention and lead to more attention that isn't wanted.

Greengrow "a group which actually does what it says"

But they don't say - that's the problem. They make it sound to schools as if this is a nice chance for the children to send a Christmas present to a child in another country.

And then they use that to try to convert others.

Many Christian charities don't do that. So the schools don't automatically think "Oh, a charity run by Christians, so they will be evangelising as part of the deal. We will either support or choose not to on that basis." They think "Christians being charitable. That's nice"

Christians do charity work because they believe it is right.
Christians evangelise because they believe it is right.
Most Christians believe it is morally wrong to use the first as a means to do the second.

Personally I am glad that OCC are reacting this way - it shows that the negative publicity they get is scaring them, and it generates more debate of their aims and methods than if they just kept quiet.

I need a 'Like' button for your post, AMumInScotland - it is perfect.

The Bible says very little about homosexuality - I think Jesus didn't think it worth mentioning at all and the little there is is old testament

C of E has gay vicars and gay members and doesn't call them sinners or turn them away - nor do they try and reform them.

A lot of the Bible IS sexist but church practice is reforming (sloooowly) and women play a vital and leading role in many communities

I was raised in a active Christian family and church - nothing I was taught is reflected in the teachings of evangelical anti women anti gay anti 'other religions' churches

Yes God does tell people to spread the word - it doesn't instruct people to discriminate or hate