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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that if you know the laws of a country and break them anyway you don't deserve much sympathy

37 replies

Hoppinggreen · 06/10/2014 09:31

Ok bracing for impact here as this could be a controversial one.
I was just listening on the radio to the story of the 70 year man who has been arrested n morocco for being gay.
I support the right of anyone to have sex with anyone else as long as both parties are consensual and I think that the fact the homosexuality is illegal in Morroco is a disgrace, and we should look at how we can put political or economic pressure on the Moroccan government to change this. I also hope that this man comes home safe soon.
However ( and here is the but that might get me flamed) how did the authorities know he was gay? He must have been engaging in sexual activity with another man or men to be caught and if he DID know this was illegal then how much sympathy does he deserve really?
I suppose it's like the couple having sex on a beach in Dubai or openly drinking in Abu Dhabi, it's illegal and so if people choose to break the laws of a country ( whether we agree with them or not) should we be outraged that they are punished?
If this gentleman went to Morocco knowing homosexuality is illegal there and had sex ( or tried to) with a man then why shouldn't he be punished?
Again, I genuinely hope this gentleman is safe back with his family soon, I am posting here for a discussion on the concept rather than on what should happen to this man I am using as an example.

OP posts:
PeachyTheSanctiMoanyArse · 06/10/2014 09:41

YANBU. The right to relationships (of a consensual non harming manner) are a basic human right which should rise above a nation's laws. Otherwise how would Mandela have changed anything? The suffragettes? Any other campaigner for human rights / equality / democracy? I lack sympathy with anyone caught drinking in Saudi or infractions on that level, but human rights level issues not at all.

Charitybelle · 06/10/2014 09:41

I do agree. I feel terrible for this man and it's a disgrace that he is being arrested for his sexuality....BUT there's a reason I don't go to certain countries. I don't agree with the way women are treated in a lot of places, so I don't go. Partly as a way to express my disapproval of their laws and regimes and partly because I'm scared of what could happen to a woman travelling on her own.

A caveat to this, is that without people like this gentleman flouting these ridiculous laws and inciting international outrage and condemnation perhaps there would never be any change??
I hope he is able to come home soon.

HelenBrx · 07/10/2014 07:24

Of course, there could be situations where it is morally right to disobey a law - for example, if there was a law which said that people had to kill people of religious group x. However, I think that we also have some moral obligation to observe laws - we are animals that live in a society and laws are part of the rules which allow society to work. So disobeying laws is justified only when the evil of obeying outweighs our moral obligation to obey. Whilst I am completely in favour of equality for different sexual orientations it doesn't seem, to me, that someone visiting a country could persuasively argue that not being able to enjoy their preferred sexual activities was an evil sufficient to justify disobeying the law.

I take the point about disobeying the law sometimes being a good way to start getting the law changed. But this does not give us carte blanche to obey only those laws we agree with.

Booboostoo · 07/10/2014 08:13

YABU. Imagine a country where it is illegal to have a relationship with someone of a different race, would you expect mixed race couples to hide? Sexual orientation is an identity issue and hiding who you are is quite a different demand from abstaining from alcohol.

KnackeredMuchly · 07/10/2014 08:15

YABU.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 07/10/2014 08:17

YABU
Mostly because gay sex in morocco is an open secret. Morocco has been a destination for gay sex tourists for generations. He wasn't doing anything that millions of tourists and Moroccans haven't done for generations. He probably got honey trapped and couldn't/ wouldn't pay the bribe to get out of it, that's another risky aspect of Moroccan tourism. If it's not sex it's drugs.

Anyway, the point is that this isn't a fair application of the law of the land, and besides, the law of the land contravenes basic human rights.

OraProNobis · 07/10/2014 08:18

I don't think the OP should have posted this in AIBU because already people are failing to grasp what she's said and just posting YABU and rounding on the OP as if she agrees with the scenario. She's made it clear she doesn't. This would be better in chat imvho.

MidniteScribbler · 07/10/2014 08:18

This man is the father of a friend of a friend and I've been seeing the facebook posts for the last few days. It appears that he went over there to meet a man. I do not agree with the laws, and my sympathy is with this man (and his partner who was presumably arrested alongside him but without the media attention), but if you travel abroad then you must be aware of the laws, regardless of whether you like them or not.

FarelyKnuts · 07/10/2014 08:19

Plenty of gay men and lesbian women (including me) go to Morocco on holidays all the time. Presumably they have sex on their holidays like most. They don't end up arrested for it. Why was he singled out?

Scattaboy · 07/10/2014 08:21

Also I'm not sure if you have read recent reports from other countries with similar laws but no you don't have to be engaging in any sort of sex act,people have been reported to the authorities to be homosexual for 'dressing flamboyantly' or most recently for drinking Baileys (yes really-Cameroon).
I totally agree that this is an identity and human rights issue and not on a par with drinking on a beach, I understand the point about not having sex with or hitting on another man in a country with that law (even if for no other reason than self preservation),but has that actually been disclosed?As it is not by any means the only reason people are 'outed' in countries with laws such as this.

iPadsforall · 07/10/2014 08:23

for him to be singled out in this way, I imagine he was honey trapped. The guy he went to meet possibly grassed him up to the authorities.

Lookslikeimstuckhere · 07/10/2014 08:23

So far as I know, and have only seen details as his son is a friend of a friend... They confronted him at a bus stop and arrested him for 'suspected homosexuality'. Because they had seen him walking around with another man.

They imprisoned him for a week without informing the British consulate. Or his family.

They charged and sentenced him based on some photos of him and the man, found on his phone. Not sexually explicit photos I don't think, just ones of them posing together.

He is being kept in a group cell sleeping on a concrete floor. With a heart condition and previous stroke.

He has been treated appallingly and I for one hope that the Home Office are doing everything they can to get him home.

I do agree that you have to be respectful of the laws of a country and that if you blatantly flout them then you only have yourself to blame. But I don't think he was doing that, based on what I've seen and heard. Although if I had been him, I don't think I would have risked even going there!

Lookslikeimstuckhere · 07/10/2014 08:29

The man he was with was also arrested and sentenced for the same amount of time so not sure it was a honey trap.

LuisSuarezTeeth · 07/10/2014 08:45

There's no suggestion from the news reports that he "had sex" or "tried to". He was arrested on suspicion of homosexuality and the police decided that a photograph showing the two men together (it's not stated how) on Mr Cole's phone was proof.

It doesn't seem that Mr Cole was deliberately flouting laws, so YABU.

Your OP is full of "must have been" and assumptions, but all I can find is a photograph. It's a shame you don't think he deserves any sympathy.

sanfairyanne · 07/10/2014 09:00

if you knew much about morocco you would not post that.
it is not like going to iran.or saudi
morocco has always been a big tourist destination for gay men in particular and so long as you were foreign it has always been ignored
this is a very worrying development - signs of increased islamification perhaps
i do wonder if he just didnt pay a bribe or annoyed a policeman but it might be more than that
he was arrested queuing at a bus stop, not 'in flagrante'
very very worrying development

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 07/10/2014 09:04

Men walk around holding hands in Morocco, they kiss each other on greeting, they pose for pictures cuddling and in some probably innocently homoerotic poses. This was a set up of some kind, I guarantee it.

tiggytape · 07/10/2014 09:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 07/10/2014 09:19

What do you think about Moroccan people who have same sex relationships OP? Should they just emigrate or go abroad? Or should they sit it out until the nice British government has pressed for their country to change the law?

And yes, Morocco has been a destination for gay and bisexual people for over a century - try reading Andre Gide or Paul Bowles.

tiggytape · 07/10/2014 09:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gordyslovesheep · 07/10/2014 09:43

It's not as simple as 'breaking a law' if you live somewhere where it is illegal to be gay ... You have to deny your sexuality and either live a lie or never have sexual contact with anyone. Why should anyone be forced by law to deny who they are ... We don't control our sexuality it's part of our biological make up.

There will be thousands of Moroccan gay people living in fear - they should also be our concern . This man did nothing wrong

bodhranbae · 07/10/2014 09:53

All of my gay male friends have been going on holidays to Morocco for years because it is so gay friendly and had been for decades.

To say that he should have known about the laws and avoided the place misses the point that Morocco has always had a very big - albeit discreet - gay scene.

An awful lot of pink pounds, euros and dollars and spent in Morocco each year - this will do huge damage to their tourist industry.

The whole thing is an shitty stitch up and I hope they can get him home asap. And yes he gets lots and lots of sympathy from me.

dancingwithmyselfandthecat · 07/10/2014 10:12

I personally think that every gay, bisexual or transgender person in the world in prison because of their sexuality or gender identity deserves our sympathy whether they knowingly broke the law or not.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 07/10/2014 13:35

You can say you think the laws are wrong all you like, but if you 'lack sympathy' with people for being a country where basic human rights are denied, then you are on the side of the oppressor.

If people choose to break the laws of a country ( whether we agree with them or not) should we be outraged that they are punished?

You are not outraged that women are punished for driving in Saudi Arabia?

You are not outraged that women die for want of an abortion in Ireland?

You are not outraged that being gay in Uganda carries a risk of life imprisonment?

What does anyone do if they live somewhere with laws they disagree with? Either ignore them and risk the penalty, challenge them and hope for change or move.

You know that people are murdered for campaigning for gay rights. It's not simply a case of writing a letter to your MP or asking the British Ambassador to have a word. How many people living in Morocco have the means to move?

How nice for you to be able to sit and tut at people who are denied their own bodily autonomy and the right to love who they choose.

roundandround51 · 07/10/2014 13:44

YABU. Morocco has been a big gay destination for years. Its discreet but there all the same.

Being gay and having sex in public are 2 very different things

tiggytape · 07/10/2014 13:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.