To be considering a front facing car seat

[Wilf83]

I'm a ftm & only just heard that a rear facing car seat are the safest. All my friends with 3 year old+ have always had front facing seats after their baby car seats so to me front facing from 12 months is normal but now I'm thinking that it would be really reckless of me.

I wonder how many parents will die because of ERF seats?

So many people have commented that they have to put their seats right to the front and can barely fit.

This means in an accident, the risk of crushing injuries will be much higher. It's not how the cars should be used.

Whereas 21 under 16s died in road accidents last year, 1900 adults died. The risk for children has already been reduced almost as low as it can go. All car safety tests are done with the seats set back from the dashboard so you may be much more at risk yourself after fitting a giant RF seat.

On the other hand, RF seats might lead to people buying bigger cars which tend to be safer - this might offset a least some of the problem.

This is comparable, though less than, the number of people struck by lightning each year in the UK (30-60). I don't see parents berating one another over their strategies to make their children safe from this phenomenon.

larry while I don't disagree with you (that people have an absurdly inconsistent attitude to risk), some of your lines of argument are daft. Response to risk should be governed not only by the probability of an outcome, but by the cost of mitigating it. To choose to buy one car seat over another, and spend £100-£200 more, is for many parents a reasonable proposition (I recognise that the cost will not be felt equally for all, and for some it is intolerable). Additionally, a parent putting a child in a car is ultimately choosing to take an avoidable risk, and as part of that decision, may pay extra attention to minimising it.

The example of being hit by lightning is unfair: first, because it is quite likely that we already take the equivalent (low cost) precaution that advocates of ERF car seats argue for - we don't go out in storms and stand next to telephone poles. Second, because mitigating the risk entirely might mean never leaving the house. So a fairer comparison would be if people on this thread were saying, car accidents are so terrible, you must never put your child in a car.

It is much more successful to argue that the benefit of ERF (injury sustained in a given accident) is minimal and doesn't justify the cost. But as a pp said, the parents of children who die in RTAs might disagree. 15% doesn't capture the non linear nature of increments of serious injury. Injured, badly injured, very badly injured, dead. In fact, it's binary. Dead, or alive. If DD died in a car accident, I would always regret scrimping on her car seat. If she were struck by lightning, barring obvious risk taking behaviour, I would have little to regret, other than a lack of perfect foresight.

I was vaguely aware of Erf 3 years ago when DS1 needed to move up. But it was a rather obscure at the time. I looked into it again for Ds2. I managed to keep him in his infant carrier until 15 months. My car doesn't have isofix which massively restricts the options. I struggle lifting toddlers in and out of car seats so looked at options like my Axiss that swivels for access, but I was looking at a seat that would be £350+ with no guarantee that it would fit well in the car prior to purchase. With already having a toddler in the car, the chances of fitting a husband in too are getting pretty low. So I stayed with my original car seat as Ds1 was ready to move up at the same time. Comparing the practicalities of an Erf seat against it's theoretical benefits in an unlikely situation, didn't add up for us.

Ds1 has recently found his voice, and it's hard enough driving safely with him rabbiting on. I'm not convinced that the added impediment of his voice being aimed at the back of the car would make for a safer journey. He already gets frustrated when I struggle to hear him over background noise.

car accidents are so terrible, you must never put your child in a car.

Actually, I would say that - statistically - it is more important to avoid non essential car journeys than to ERF.

Parents choose to make non essential car journeys - going to see friends for example - because they have decided that the enjoyment for the family outweighs the risk of going in the car.

That's exactly the same decision I have made when I choose to FF - which my DD undoubtedly enjoys more (and so do the rest of us as we don't have to hear her whinge).

If you ERF, do you also take pains to avoid non essential car journeys? Or are you lucky enough to have a child who doesn't care which way they face?

Minipie - I do both. I am lucky in that DS doesn't seem to mind ERF at all, and seems to enjoy the range of the view it gives him. I also avoid unnecessary journeys from an environmental and safety point of view. (Safety in particular when driving conditions are bad).

Also, I think there needs to be more awareness of what constitutes an 'outgrown' 0+ seat. We had the maxi cosi Pebble on a base, and it lasted my DS until he was 20 months, he was 75th centile for height and 50th for weight so not unduly small. I am convinced a lot of people think a carrier is outgrown when it's not - partly because I see a lot of babies wearing coats in car seats which again is a massive safety no no, but will also make the baby seem more squashed in a seat. I think that a 20 month old FF has a lower risk for injury than a 9 month old (I think the risks get lower the older they get - I will be turning DS around soon and he's nearly 3).

mrscog I agree with you about people moving on from their 0+ seat too early - we moved DD at 15 months and she is very tall for her age so really was at the top edge of the seat.

If your DS doesn't mind ERF, then obviously there is no downside to choosing ERF (other than financial perhaps). It's more difficult if your child is clearly much happier in FF (as mine is).

I think the HV play a part in people moving on from the infant carrier seats too early. With all my four we were told to think about a new seat at the 9 month check.

How do people who ERF manage when DC travel in other peoples cars? This was a major factor in us not getting RF seats as my DC go in GP's cars more than the travel in our car.
We couldn't find RF that fitted in all the three cars, so it was with buy RF for us and FF for GP's cars or buy 4 or 6 RF seats. In the end we had to get FF as we couldn't even get two RF to fit in our car and leave room for me and our other two DC.

DD goes FF in my parents' car as they bought a FF seat for their other DGC, so she uses this. She might travel in their car once every 2 months, so we aren't as bothered about that as it is so infrequent. I think that my parents might struggle to fit the ERF seat we have into their car and the do need to take it out between uses. She is ERF in both of our cars. That works fine for us.

Agreed re moving on from stage 0 seats. Some people seem to treat it as a badge of honour.

Notso DD rarely travels in another car. She's either in ours or on about three occasions we've moved the seat to DParent's car. If this was a more regular thing we might have to buy an extra seat

Dd has just grown out of her rf seat aged 4. She found it comfy and liked looking out of the rear window. It was a recaro seat. If I have more dc I'll have them rear facing too. Much safer and no problems.

So, has anyone actually used ERF despite finding their DCs don't like it?

All the GP cars are ISOFIX here. DH's car is ISOFIX. My car was the only one without so we sold it and bought a Focus 05 plate to which we had ISOFIX retrofitted. We move the Cybex from car to car as we need to.

The GPs are not allowed to fit the seat though.

But minipie dd has only ever rear faced. She doesn't know that she could ff.

I know you can't compare rf with ff as she's only ever rf, but is she happy in the car?

You see DD always whinged (sometimes progressing to full on screaming) when RF. She was bored, basically. She stopped the minute we put her FF. If she'd been happy RF I might well have gone with ERF... What I'm saying is that if you have a child who is unhappy RF then it's a different equation from if you have a child who is happy RF.

My DD didn't know the difference when she moved on to her ERF car seat. She has since traveled FF in my parents' car. But RF is "normal" to her, so she doesn't seem to mind.

Yes she's happy. She sleeps brilliantly, chatters away, reads her magazines like a little businessman reading the FT on his way to work, (very funny to watch in the rear view mirror).

Ok, so let me rephrase my question. Is there anyone who has ERFd even though their DC was not happy in their group 0/0+ RF seat?

Because to me, it seems like all the people who have ERFd, and are happy to say everyone else should, have never actually had to deal with a child who is unhappy rear facing.

Yes, from 9-16 months DD1 screamed continuously in her Maxi-Cosi infant seat. She hated it. But, she spent the first 7 months of life screaming continuously anyway so by then I was sooooo used it.

It didn't put me off ERF as I knew I could drive through the screaming. As it turned out, she's happy in the Cybex Sirona. I don't know why. Maybe because it's higher and she can see out of the windows?

You're a braver woman than me stargirl I was just desperate to find something to stop the whinging and crying (I couldn't drive through it so used to time all drives at nap time, which got trickier as dd dropped her naps...) and FF worked. Although, now I wonder if a Cybex Sirona would have worked...

Plenty of people have front facing seats ( they are cheaper) and their kids are fine.

It's not illegal (yet). Yes it may be safer to go rear facing but don't feel guilty.

Mini, I think it was screaming boot camp that I survived in the early days. The worst day was in January 2013. She screamed for 13 hours at 5 months without pause, slept for 10 minutes while I bounced on my birth ball, and then the screaming started again. Luckily, at that point, she slept in the car seat. I drove aimlessly around for 2 hours that day! Silent reflux.

Mini pie, I think you you've got a DC who would rather face the front and it would be a dangerous distraction if they weren't then FF is a sensible choice. I do RF DS, but the variables and risks were in our 'favour' - DS was happy, I could safely fit and afford the seat and most of our driving is high risk for a head on collision which is where you reap most safety benefits.

thinking back I moved DD1 from rear to forward facing when she was 2 years. She was always terrible in the car - mainly boredom I suspect, but she also got car sick occasionally. When we moved her forward facing ... nothing changed. She was just as fussy / bored / pita. She still got car sick every now and again. The boredom stopped when she learnt to read and when DD2 came along and then was old enough to hold a conversation with her. Still waiting for her to grow out of the car sickness!

DD2 also moved forward facing at 2 years. She didn't fuss much before, she didn't fuss much after. Meh.

Ouch stargirl - DD had a few silent reflux episodes (prem/tongue tie) and I always counted myself very lucky she didn't have it more. Bloody awful from what I've heard.

mrscog I tend to agree!