to think mansion tax is an unfair tax on London and the South East?

[goodnessgracious]

I disagree with mansion tax but regardless it seems to me to be unfair on Londoners.

Aibu to think that it may also force some people to sell their properties who are income poor but property rich?

If you have a small salary but live in an expensive house you can sell the house and buy something for £1.5 million.

There you go! Just sell your house that you paid for and buy another cheaper one.

Italics have failed me.

A wealth tax is hardly a new idea. France has had one for ages. The way they get round the low income thing is to state that your overall tax cannot be more than (I think) 50% of income or something.

The advantage with a house tax is that it is harder to hide it offshore, so less prone to be dodged than a wealth tax.

There is already a property tax in the form of council tax, which depends on property price. This is just an added one on very high value houses, is all. Given that so many are owned by overseas investors, it may be the only reasonable way to get an income out of them.

Hmm, I'm not sure if you are holding it up as a good example or not Liara but the French tax regime isn't exactly working out so well for the country though is it! Ironically enough, a large part of the reason house prices have shot up in Camden recently is the large influx of wealthy French escaping the harsh taxes (there is a new lycée in Camden).

New lycee in Fulham as well.

Yes...Ed Milliband should maybe take a lesson ....France and tax

Instead of trying to raise money through taxes to pay for the NHS or whatever, why doesn't the government look at where it can save money. For example the incredibly stupid and hideously expensive PFI contracts; how about the MP's not taking a huge year on year pay rise (someone try and justify why they deserve it because I fail to see the value).

So many vanity government projects that cannot be justified or have no real return on investment. Who would run their business in the way the government does things - the business would be run into the ground. Its sickening to see the wastage yet the answer is always to tax more to get more money.

totally agree and how about making sure people pay if they are not entitled to free health care in the UK.

unfair. surprise taxes suck, especially on your home.

I don't think the mansion tax would work in practice.

It would seem better to increase tax at the time of a sale and to look at property portfolios, although not sure how easy this would be in this country.

I do resent any implication that those who live in v expensive houses have worked much harder than others as this is simply not the case to at least frequently not the case.

what I do think it unfair is stamp duty. it is totally idiotic because it isn't marginal, but it wasn't meant to ensnare (or maybe it was meant to) so many people.

Currently in most parts of the country, council tax is a much bigger burden. On a £200 per month flat in the valleys council tax would be over £800 per year so approx another third.

Handsoff - if I could rent a flat in London for £200 per month I would gladly pay only £800 per year in council tax. The average rent round here for a 1 bed flat is £900 per month with council tax of £1,400 per annum. By your reasoning it should increase to £3,600.

So you pay £200 x 12 plus £800; total £3,200 per annum

I pay £900 x 12 plus £3,600; total £14,400 per annum

And you think you have the bigger burden?

As for your Westminster statistic, which is totally unrepresentative of what the majority of Londoners pay, how about his one instead.

Minimum wage for over 21s is £6.50 per hour.

Rent at £200 per month = 30 hours per month
Rent at £900 per month = 138 hours per month

or

Rent at £200 per month/138 hours per month = £1.50 per hour
Rent at £900 per mont/30 hours per month = £30 per hour

Gotta love statistics.

I don't think it's fair to include properties which aren't mansions by any stretch of the imagination just because they are worth over a certain amount. £2 million in London might buy you a townhouse, not a true mansion.

If you have a small salary but live in an expensive house you can sell the house and buy something for £1.5 million.

This comment is so interesting that I'm revisiting it. I gather then you would not object to relocating all chronically unemployed social housing inhabitants currently in zone 1-3 of London to Luton/Slough or similar so that they could live more economically? The government could sell off all a big chunk of council housing and fund whatever projects you've got in mind.

I'm wondering how many of the wealthy people on here who think it would be terribly unfair for the rich to move out of their £2m homes to avoid mansion tax, also have the sane sympathy for the poor who are faced with leaving their family home to avoid the bedroom tax?

Or are the wealthy more deserving of our sympathy?

I'm wondering how many of the wealthy people on here who think it would be terribly unfair for the rich to move out of their £2m homes to avoid mansion tax, also have the sane sympathy for the poor who are faced with leaving their family home to avoid the bedroom tax?

It's not about "fair". It's about property rights. I fully accept that if our financial circumstances change, we would have to move house.

Does not most wealth gain get taxed - savings, share dividends etc - so why

It is the left and right divide. The left would say all wealth should be held in common, not by individuals and be available to all. China tried paying doctors the same as street sweepers for a while but it did not work. Even Cuba has recently returned to allowing people to buy their home rather than hold it from the state.

Most people in the UK support the idea that those provided with social housing paid for by hand working tax payers should not bed block given how many people in dire need are on council house waiting list. Despite what the left say the welfare reforms have been very popular.

One iniquity of the mansion tax is that you might own a £2m place on a 90% mortgage. you have less capital than your neighbour in a £400k unmortgaged house but still pay a massive tax. So it can be a tax on wealth you don't have. It's like saying to a council house tenant in a 9 bed house in London worth £2m (or £1m if it comes down to that) your rented place is worth £2m, you don't own it you don't have that capital but we want £12k a year from you in mansion tax even though you don't own that asset.

I'm wondering how many of the wealthy people on here who think it would be terribly unfair for the rich to move out of their £2m homes to avoid mansion tax, also have the sane sympathy for the poor who are faced with leaving their family home to avoid the bedroom tax?

To say nothing of the fact taxing already-taxed income can't possibly be compared to a reduction in benefits. We receive nothing from the government, apart from basic infrastructure. We are net givers by a huge margin.

Yes, the net givers are getting a bit fed up. When that happens they tend to pay less not more tax and the less well off suffer. When upper rate tax came down from the highest 99% rate in the 70s eventually down to 40% we raised more not less tax.

on the issue of unfilled properties for those on benefits if there is a shortage of one beds they could always change the rules to have two single mothers in one 2 bed flat. I don't see why benefits claimants are less crowded than those of us in £2m houses. My children share rooms and I may be subject to the mansion tax. My older children have done their time sleeping on floors and friends' flats whereas those on benefits their age get guaranteed minimum space, rules about how many children of which sex can share a room etc.

Ghost land

The idea that people can just sell up and move somewhere cheaper shows a total lack of empathy and understanding of how that would affect a family and the wider community.

If you changed the price tag on the home and kept other facts the same, like moving children from schools, older people away from support networks etc I am sure you would not have written what you did.

I am astounded at some of the posters on here that show a lack of compassion for people solely because they are better off than them on paper.

There have been numerous examples where this tax would have a terrible effect on people's lives and is grossly unfair. To flippantly suggest "just move" shows the writer to lack any empathy.

Incidentally I also think it's terrible that lower earners are being priced out if the capital. It is becoming less diverse in Central London and that is not a good thing. This tax would just cleanse it further to super rich only.

Property price is not actual money or of any relevance to wealth unless the property owner either wants to move far away, they die, or don't need anywhere to live for any other reason.

To suggest a home owner could draw down on their equity to pay for this tax if their income is not sufficient shows total financial stupidity. How would they finance that new mortgage or even get it in the first place. Ridiculous and ill informed.

... hit enter too soon...
Meant to say '...so why not wealth gained via property value increase?'

inconceivable I would have no problem with taxing gains on property but it would have to be incurred at the point someone actually sells and doesn't reinvest in another property in the same region. It would just be too complicated to administer though, unless we tax everyone's gains on property (at which point there would be uproar ), there would need to be some formula so that the proportion of the gain retained by the homeowner was aligned between regions...

My reasoning coming back to the 'golden cage' many Londoners find themselves trapped in. Earning £120,000 perhaps, living in a small 2 bed that you bought ten years ago for £300,000 when two (now) parents were high earners, that is now worth £1.2m To move down the road to a small 3 bed house with a bit of a garden you need £1.75m plus the stamp duty. No one is going to give you an extra £500k mortgage so you can do that-so you either put up and shut up or leave London.

There is definitely a need to examine who is the tenant in social housing. in one case a property was being rented to wealthy tourists and the original owners rented a less salubrious property elsewhere and kept the rent of the former.

The property tax is awful and sitting duck targets. also what about the very well off elsewhere who are cash rich and very comfortable but their property is only 1.5 million and a mansion but isn't in London.