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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

punishing the whole class, AIBU to make a fuss?

305 replies

georgeousgeorge · 27/09/2014 16:51

So, some bright spark in DS1's class (he's 8 / y4) decided to pour water all over the teachers chair, she sat on it. 35 boys are "in the frame" and have been shouted at by the HOY.

Unless someone confesses they all get a half hour detention.....with the view being that the HOY assumed they all knew about it and that someone is going to dob in the culprit.... However none of them seems to know who did it, my DS certainly doesn't have a clue.

This is teaching my very good DS precisely nothing, he's polite, helpful, good reports, and has never been in trouble.

However, I do support the school, it is generally good.

However for the first time I'm turning into THAT mum - AIBU to make a fuss?

OP posts:
maddening · 28/09/2014 00:23

There is the culprit and then there are those that knew and still let the teacher say down - if all the boys go in at the same time then potentially lots of people were effectively complicit in the act - and knowing somebody did something and not reporting it is being complicit - same as if you witness a crime and lie to cover it up.

aurynne · 28/09/2014 00:36

I assume the ones of you who think this is a fair thing to do, would be happy with your employer taking some pounds off your salary because one employee stole some money from the company. Or making everyone in your team work an extra hour a day for a week because someone did not clock their hours.

My school did this to my class twice. I have never forgotten. In one case, the whole class was forced to sit an exam because one pupil had thrown some food at the blackboard. I have no idea who it was. When I think back to the teacher who punished us, the only thing I remember of her was the unfair punishment.

musicalendorphins2 · 28/09/2014 00:44

YABU.

icedgem30 · 28/09/2014 01:44

Wow this is an interesting read. I can't believe the amount of people agreeing this is fair.

I cant imagine many adults would be happy to take the rap for somebody elses actions, why are we happy to punish innocent children? More often than not the good kids are far more worried about bullying from the culprit than they are about being punished, so they're not going to 'grass'.

Doesn't teach children anything apart from being good doesn't get you anywhere.

squoosh · 28/09/2014 02:13

I can't believe the amount of people getting themselves aerated over it. A half hour's detention, such cruelty!

HicDraconis · 28/09/2014 04:13

I'd still like to know what the purpose of the whole class detention is.

If it's to punish the perpetrator of the joke plus whoever else was in on it, then it achieves that. But also at the expense of punishing several innocent parties which is not fair. I wouldn't be happy to have my salary docked because an unknown thief stole from the hospital (to use an excellent example from a previous poster).

If it's to try and shame the perpetrator into owning up, or have classmates put pressure on to own up - it's not worked. Nobody's owned up, peer pressure in this context is highly likely to lead to an innocent person confessing (either being bullied into it, or just to have if over with, or for a number of other reasons). For this alone you cannot guarantee that any confession is true. I've admitted to things I haven't done as have previous posters. So it doesn't achieve cast iron proof of identification of the guilty child anyway.

The only other option can be that it's to save face. Someone has mocked authority and by God the whole group shall pay. Makes authority look even more incompetent imho.

TheRealAmandaClarke · 28/09/2014 05:50

So, in healthcare, its ok to have body fluids thrown at you as "part of the job" but a wet bum for a teacher is intolerable and a justification for punishing an entire class of children, the majority of whom are innocent?
Hmm

I think if this had happened to me I might find it annoying but mildly amusing. Definitely not humiliating. Certainly requiring a consequence for the "guilty party", but not a group punishment.

But in the course of my job the "downsides" are very grave, so maybe I have a higher threshold for workplace inconvenience than some people.

GnomeDePlume · 28/09/2014 07:31

Remembering that this was a class of 8 year olds I think that this could have been handled in a way which didnt minimise it but at the same time didnt involve a group punishment.

A talk on the subject of practical jokes and how they can upset people and feel like bullying. Again, they are 8 year olds. A positive lesson for all. An undeserved group punishment just teaches children that adults are allowed to be unfair.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/09/2014 08:03

So, in healthcare, its ok to have body fluids thrown at you as "part of the job"

Where has anyone said this?

SuburbanRhonda · 28/09/2014 08:07

aurynne I think it's somewhat disingenuous of you to compare a half-hour whole class detention with an employer docking an employee's salary for no reason (which, incidentally is illegal).

Original poster
georgeousgeorge · 28/09/2014 08:31

Thanks all for your responses!

Just to clear up a few points, not a class of 35, a year of 35 (2 small classes) was trying not to out myself too much!!

The incident happened in a breaktime, not in front of the class.

The first my DS and most others knew of it was the next day when they were held back after assembly and shouted at by the deputy head.

I found it funny when my (very serious) DS was explaining it to me and going through "chief suspects" in Secret Seven style....I wasn't laughing AT ALL at the teacher.

For those of you who have said my DS could have done it, yes he could in the sense that he is one of the 35 who had access at the time.

My main problem with this is that I can see if it was done publicly with a laughing class then it is likely someone would dob in the suspect HOWEVER in this case it seems that very few knew about it until they were told.... which makes it odd. I would have (say) had a generalised conversation about being nice to people/ not playing trick/ unkindness isn't nice would have been far more appropriate.

OP posts:
Smilesandpiles · 28/09/2014 08:34

It is no wonder that schools struggle with discipline and that standards are falling with the lack of support shown by some parents.

^ This.

clam · 28/09/2014 08:50

It is no wonder that schools struggle with discipline and that standards are falling with the lack of support shown by some parents.

Agree too. Just this week the media ran a story about how up to an hour a day is lost from learning due to "low-level" disruption, and that it's Head Teachers who are failing to get a grip on it. And then you read this sort of thread and see just what HTs are up against. Quibbling about the nature and degree of sanctions (within reason, and this one is) just undermines schools in their attempt to promote good behaviour so the rest of the kids can bloody learn something.

Original poster
georgeousgeorge · 28/09/2014 08:55

Coolas your idea is much better.

Yes it is a boys school....

Bobby - I did wonder if it wasn't water the amount of fuss made about it, they do have water bottles but wee is possible

I think the main problem with this is that very few knew about it prior to them being told about the punishment. If it happened in front of a glass of 35 giggling eight year olds I would go for the whole class punishment with no problem. Given the school setup however it could very easily be anyone of a hundred other boys....

OP posts:
Luxaroma · 28/09/2014 08:57

So to ensure one child is punished you need to punish 34 others and people think this is ok?
Half an hour's detention is no big deal? What's the point of it then?
Imo school needs to supervise more closely.
I would complain - I have a well behaved child who has never been in trouble, I support the school but the line gets drawn somewhere. Thankfully it's against our school discipline policy so there would be no need.

UptheChimney · 28/09/2014 09:04

i did have a silent giggle at the thought of the teacher with a wet bum I have to admit

On behalf of all the teachers who work hard helping our society to raise good people, I thank you for your respect.

In an all boys school, with a female teacher, what sort of view of women does this suggest?

YABU, just for that comment.

Altinkum · 28/09/2014 09:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/09/2014 09:11

i did have a silent giggle at the thought of the teacher with a wet bum I have to admit

I wasn't laughing AT ALL at the teacher.

so which one is true, OP?

UptheChimney · 28/09/2014 09:34

Just this week the media ran a story about how up to an hour a day is lost from learning due to "low-level" disruption, and that it's Head Teachers who are failing to get a grip on it. And then you read this sort of thread and see just what HTs are up against. Quibbling about the nature and degree of sanctions (within reason, and this one is) just undermines schools in their attempt to promote good behaviour so the rest of the kids can bloody learn something

Exactly what I thought when I heard that news item.

I get them when they come to university & I teach at a fairly competitive university with a reputation for having "posh" students who, one presumes, are bought up by "naice" parents with "naice" manners. Doesn't stop their children from being quite disrespectful: constant chatter in lectures for example, as well as blatantly texting, or consulting phones under the desks.

It's OPs like this one that I see where it comes from.

And I still remember the time I took the blame for a minor class infraction (leaving a cupboard door open iirc) because I was sick of the teacher having to waste time getting the actual culprit to close the door. Didn't bother me that much -- I remember thinking "Lets just get on wit the lesson" and owning up & closing the door was the quickest way to do that, even though I hadn't been near the cupboard Hmm

clam · 28/09/2014 10:18

Phoning up the school to complain or insisting "My children (if it wasn't them) wouldn't be doing this detention" is an appalling message to send the child. Not to mention the school, who presumably you have a signed home-school agreement with. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture, which is about sending a clear message to everyone (guilty in this instance or not) that poor behaviour will not be tolerated. If nothing was done, a fair few of those "innocent" kids will get the idea that it's open season.

For the record, group punishment is not something I have ever done as I don't think they're fair or effective. However, sometimes life isn't fair, and if my child was in this class (and innocent) I would tell them just to suck it up this time.

And I bet loads of the kids know perfectly well who's responsible.

Original poster
georgeousgeorge · 28/09/2014 10:22

I have made this clear a couple of times....but for those of you skipping to the end...

I found it funny when my (very serious) DS was explaining it to me and going through "chief suspects" in Secret Seven style....I wasn't laughing AT ALL at the teacher. My silent giggle was at the situation.

Also mentioned a number of times, I support the school to the utmost and would in no way sanction a class of children disrupting / laughing at a teacher, male or female.

What is bizarre about this situation is that many of the children knew nothing about it until it was raised with them the following day Hmm

As someone else mentioned upthread it has caused huge discussion in the playground about who it could be, DS is very open about these things and if he knew would have told me. One of the names being bandied about is a child with SN, and I have had a long chat with DS about this...

I find it very odd that if this thread was in employment - for example, "my employer made me work through my lunch because ...... it could have been any one of us in our workplace but we were all made to work through lunch as they couldn't work out who it was..." people would be up in arms, as it's kids it doesn't matter....they should all be punished....

Also (again to be clear) if this was a class of 35 laughing at teacher with a wet bum, absolutely all in detention. But it wasn't, to the extent that many of them were unaware until they were told about it.

OP posts:
FunkyBoldRibena · 28/09/2014 10:27

I wasn't laughing AT ALL at the teacher.

You quite clearly WERE laughing at the teacher! You were giggling at the thought of a teacher with a wet bum. Not about secret seven style suspects.

See - you said i did have a silent giggle at the thought of the teacher with a wet bum I have to admit.

FFS.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/09/2014 10:30

I haven't "skipped to the end", OP, if you're aiming that comment at me.

It was you who posted that you had a silent giggle at the thought of the teacher with a wet bum

Now you're claiming you were laughing at "the situation" - an entirely different story.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/09/2014 10:30

X-post funky

Smilesandpiles · 28/09/2014 10:31

Stop back-tracking because you've shown yourself up and shown us how immature you actually are. You're trying to argue your point from a pathetic and pointless point of view, you clearly have no respect for the teacher, dicipline procedures, the school or the HOY...all because you THINK your boy may be innocent and shouldn't be in a half hour lunch time detention.