To think my husband's employer has this wrong and can't actually do this?

[MrsDeTamble]

I'm wondering if anyone could give me advice on a situation my husband is in at work.

He received a promotion last year meaning he would be on an annual salary rather than an hourly rate. Holidays previously were worked out on an hourly basis i.e 8 hours = 1 day off, 35.5 hours = 1 week off and each employee had so many hours per year holiday.

Now he is on a salary, holidays are taken on a day by day basis (x amount of days per year). This didn't work out as advantageously as previously as the firm closes at lunch time on Fri - previously to have a Fri off, it would have cost him 5 hours of holiday whereas now he has to take a full day, no half days are allowed so if he takes a Friday off, he in effect loses half a days holiday as the firm is closed anyway. He was also given an extra weeks holiday as part of the promotion package. I hope this makes sense?!

I have recently gone back to work 3 days per week. To save money on child care, we put in a request that my husband be able to consendse his week into 4 days, working his 35.5 hours over 4 days rather than 5. We are lucky that the firm have said yes and so far it's working well. However today he tells me that because he no longer works Friday, the firm are taking 5 days holiday away from him.

I don't believe that a. They're actually allowed to do that and b. I am sure he is entitled to his full holidays as he has not reduced his working hours, he is just doing the hours in a shorter period of time.

I can understand why the firm thinks they should do this, my husband would only have to take 4 days off to get a full week away but I believe the answer is to go back to counting holidays in hours rather than days like the people who are paid an hour rate have it. So instead of having 25 days per year, he should have 177.5 hours and to take a week off it should cost him 35.5 hours.

Does this make any sense? Am I right or are the firm right? Can they just take a weeks holiday away from an employee like that?

What really really riles me is he often works more hours than he is paid for anyway!

Thanks - sorry it's so long!

songbird if you have to take a full day's leave to take your "short" day off then yes you should get the full holiday allowance.

Look at my post from 13:55 for a bit more context.

Basically he's getting 20 longer days off rather 25 shorter days off :)

songbird the legal statutory minimum holidays are 5.6 weeks regardless of how many days you work, and part-time staff can't be treated any less favourably than full time staff.

If you work more days, then you should receive more days holiday. Your 'days' will be just worth fewer hours than your colleagues who work longer hours over fewer days.

wiseguys that is interesting. It's easy if I'm taking the whole week off because on my timesheet I put 4 days leave and 1 as my non-working day. And thinking about it, I am able to choose when my short days are, so if I have the odd day off I tend to still have 3 short days. I think

I have skim read the responses - thank you everyone for your input, I will read them more carefully later and think about what you're saying. He was saving 10 days in case he has to take time off to look after our little one if she's ill but they've now taken 5 days off him. If the calculations that Ellypoo has made are correct, then maybe they are taking too many days off him for this year as he has already worked 8/12 months of 35.5 hours over 5 days. Like I said, I've only quickly read the responses as I'm out and will need more time to read them carefully later.

Thanks!

He works 35.5 hours a week over 4 days -to take a week off he takes 4 days leave =35.5 hours - he does not have to take Friday off since he does not work it.

His friend works 35.5 hours a week over 5 days - to take a week off he takes 5 days leave = 35.5 hours

So your DH is entitled to less days off - 4/5 of his friend's entitlement.

(His boss is being generous so I would not question it.)

The calculation should only apply to the balance for this year.

So 10 days left buys 8 new days.

Next year they take 5 days off. So 25 old days buys 20 new days.

Yes you are not understanding your dh's new terms and conditions as a salaried, monthly paid employee. The company have acted perfectly fairly and reasonably. Also, as your dh has changed his daily working pattern they are right to change the holiday entitlement conditions to reflect that.

Put simply in his new position it is days that are relevant not hours. He doesn't work on a Friday so that day is not counted as a holiday in the same way as Saturday, Sunday and Bank Holidays are not counted.

Look at it this way, your dh works Mon-Thurs, his colleague works Mon-Fri both book a week off your dh uses 4 days, his colleague uses 5. If your dh had the same entitlement as his colleague he would have 21 days holiday left and his colleague 20 - is that fair? Your dh has chosen to condense his hours into four days to suit you and your family.

The calculation should only apply to the balance for this year.

So 10 days left buys 8 new days.

Next year they take 5 days off. So 25 old days buys 20 new days.

I don't think he should have holiday taken from what he's already built up. I would have thought it should be adjusted pro-rata.

Or rather - what Haunted said!

Haunted that must be right mustn't it.

For what it's worth I think it's unfair to expect your DH to work 7 hours on a Friday but then closed at 1pm so he can't actually do his hours. I'm glad your DH is going to be doing compressed hours which will make it fairer.

OP I'm with you. As someone else said form ask on here as we're offering opinions rather than facts (mostly). Phone the ACAS helpline on 0300 123 1100
[http://www.acas.org.uk/helpline]

songbird depending on where you work, it should be fairly easy to sort out. Public sector places will be very aware that they any unfair penalising of part time workers can amount to indirect sex discrimination (as statistically part time workers are women so an "attack on part time workers is an "attack" on women employees) - forgive the use of "attack - I'm tired and can't think of a better phrase! It's probably an oversight though so you maybe don't need to threaten them with legal actiopn yet

Years ago when I was an hourly paid employee at a supermarket, I didn't realise I got holiday pay at all - I just thought my days off were my holidays. I worked there for 11 months and in my final paypacket I got a big wedge of holiday pay - I was over the moon!

The hours he has already worked up would not cover a full day he works now so would need to take 1 day plus a % to cover a new compressed day.

Celia - he is already working extra hours Mon-Thurs to compensate for the fact he isn't working on Fridays. He is doing his 35.5 hour week over 4 days instead of 5.

Emotion you are right, I see now that I have misunderstood and that he should have less days holiday starting in Jan to reflect the changes as has been pointed out.

Should he say something about the fact that he has worked 8/12 months on his previous hours as as a previous poster has worked out, he should get 23 days for this year only to reflect this? Or should we just suck it up and be grateful that they've let him change his hours? Our girl has only spent 2 days in nursery and has come home with a bug already so that is why we've taken less holidays this year than we usually do so he would have plenty of holiday left in case she is ill. It is easier logistically for him to take time off than me, which is why we planned it this way.

I know almost no one works their contracted hours when in a salaried position, I really know that in my line of work! I think that last statement was me blowing off a bit of steam, it's just frustrating when you work hard, you try your best and save holidays so that he won't have to take unpaid leave or I won't have to take any time off then they drop this on him one morning. With hindsight, he should have discussed this prior to the changes.

I agree with the 8 days....

he would have earned 8/12 months worth at the old rate and 4/12 at the new rate

So he has earned 8/12 - or 2/3 of 25 = roughly 16 days

and will earn 4/12 or 1/3 of 20 for the rest of the year = roughly 7 days.

Giving him 23 days leave this year. If he has used 15 (saving 10 of his original) - that leaves him 8 days.

I,m not sure I,m a nurse my holidays are works out in hours rather than five shifts a week or four night shifts a couple of years ago they brought out a system where we did two long days and two short days a/week so condensed hours I suppose and did something with the nightscwhere you worked longer hours on a night shift but less night shifts over a two week period they didn't take any of my holidays off me though!

OP I would either re-post in employment matters or ask for the thread to be moved. Flowery or HermioneWeasley are geniuses (genii?) at this.

I think you were right in the first place - if you are working the same number of hours you should be entitled to the same number of holidays.

Thomyorke
The hours he has already worked up would not cover a full day he works now so would need to take 1 day plus a % to cover a new compressed day

No, I don't think he would. OP has clearly stated that DH's holiday is based on days worked not hours.

I think he is entitled to have the holiday allocation pro rata as other posters have said and I would suggest he just confirms with HR that they have calculated the remaining holiday allowance for this year correctly.

Next year it will all be perfectly straightforward

I don't really agree with JustAChopGirl in the logic, but I get the same answer! It is when the holidays are to be taken rather than when they were accrued that is important.

Think about it in terms of proportions. So, if he had taken half of his holiday under his old working times (i.e. 12.5 days), then he would be due half of his new entitlement (i.e. 10 days). If he has taken no holiday under the old working times then he would only be due the 20 days under the new ones.

It should all equal out in terms of number of hours taken in total. There will likely be some odd part days floating around though.

What the employer shouldn't do is treat the old days the same as the new ones. So, say for instance, he had taken 15 'old' days off, he should now be left with 8 'new' days ( ((25-15)/25)x20 = 8). What they shouldn't do is take the 'old' days off his 'new' entitlement, which would only leave him with 5 'new' days (20-15=5). If that is the situation then he has losing out on 3 days holiday which is pretty significant!

Oh, and to really be fair, the bank holidays should be taken into account too. (His bank holiday is worth more than those with standard hours, unless it is on a Friday of course!) Which starts getting a bit messy.

My employer says days but actually does it by hours worked. i.e. I work 37.5 hours a week, and get 25 days hols, so 187.5 hours' holiday a year. If I worked all my time over 4 days per week, I'd have fewer days of holiday, but the same number of hours, taken over a 4 day week.

If I worked 37.5 hours in a four day week, I'd be working just over 9.5 hours a day. That's 20 days leave. If I got 25 days leave still, that would be the same as 234 and a half-ish hours' of holiday time, assuming a 4 day week 9.5(ish) hours long.

My colleagues who only get 187.5 hours' of holiday for their shorter 5 day weeks would very rightly be pissed off at this. Your husband may have fewer days of holiday, but he has the same number of hours as before.

All of our leave (I work in retail) is done by accrued date - not by day it is taken date.

(holiday accrues at the rate of 1/12 of annual entitlement for each month worked.)