To not know or understand why people don't see these things at the start of their relationship?

[MamaPain]

Had my friends round last night, a group I've known since childhood, so know all the background to their relationships.

Large amount of time was spent with two of the group complaining about their relationships.

The key issues were all things that were glaringly obvious when they met their partners. These were issues that were talked about. Now it seems to all have come as a shock to my friends and they both want to end their relationships as a result.

I'm no mystic Meg and yes DH has developed some behaviours which I couldn't have predicted but surely if he had such unbearable issues in the first place I wouldn't have been with him. Thats why I'm not now with some of the guys I went out with when I was very young, I dumped them because I didn't like some aspects of being with them.

AIBU to find it maddening that if a person knew X was a problem then, why are they shocked when X is still a problem now?

People lie to themselves. They think adding children will magically change the person and seem to be surprised when it doesn't

Darkesteyes - yes, that's the other thing, not really understanding the root of a problem, is the lack of a card due to not remembering about the person's birthday, or due to being so disorganised they didn't get round to buying one, or because they don't "do" birthdays, or because they are 'tight' /controlling with money, or because they don't really care about the other person's feelings enough to buy them a card...

The problem is never the lack of a card, it's the why - and too many woman get the reason wrong when they are trying to establish why their DP acted in a certain way. The 'red flags' might be obvious to friends who correctly identified the real 'why', but not to the woman living it because she got that bit wrong.

I agree both that it's human, and that there's some pressure to couple up.

I also think it's worth saying that people do change, sometimes in the ways you hope.

When I met my DH (who was, granted, in his very early 20s at the time and perhaps more likely than someone older to change), he did a fair bit of the classic 'I just don't see dirt like you do/you just have high standards and I don't care so much about the house'. Six years on, he has changed, and he does just automatically tidy up. He also learned to cook properly.

I think I am fairly objective about these positive changes, as we are getting divorced, and I fully expect him to find someone else who will appreciate these qualities!

The problem is, you can't predict which ways someone really will change. Loads of people I know were adamant they didn't want kids, then changed.

I'm not saying it's right for your friends to gamble on the hope of people changing, but I do understand why they might look around them and believe it's a reasonable thing to do (though not so much the scrounger - IMO scroungers don't change).

One has to ask why the person who was so absolutely adamant he would never want children didn't have a vasectomy 10 years earlier. If I were the woman in that relationship (and I've been in a very similar one) I might easily think that the fact he was remaining fertile was a 'sign' that he didn't really mean what he said. I might also think that his constant instructions to leave me if I wanted children were cries for help. Or some other such crap. Luckily my husband got a vasectomy after a couple of years together. Very helpful.

To some extent I blame soaps and daft novels and plays where people are never what they seem and are always 'a good person' and saved by someone 'believing in them' (believing in what?) Most people are exactly what they seem and life's a lot easier if you believe that.

Getting loads of sex, obviously. Next!

What Bulbasaur said. Many women second guess their instincts, give the benefit of the doubt over and over, give chances, when really, it's fine to stop seeing someone early on just because you no longer want to.

I disagree it's best to live together and have been together years and years before committing more - marriage and children - it's about being mature adults, having similar values and being compatible enough to discuss the present and future reasonably and responsibly.

Some people are very adept at using denial as a psychological defence, and this impairs their ability to predict the outcome of their decisions.

e.g. If you were convinced that your DH didn't really mean it when he said he didn't want DCs, then of course you were reasonable to expect him to step up when a DC 'unexpectedly' came along, and therefore it's mystifying to you why he hasn't responded as you expected. What, you mean he really did mean it? No, because that would mean the relationship was a sham. It must be something else - maybe he's stressed at work?

Someone I knew got married because they didn't want to move back into their parents house. They said they hated the person they were going to marry, weeks before the ceremony. Then a few months later they chose to have a baby with them.

Another got married because they were embarrassed at being 30 and unmarked, and the guy asked in a room full of people, and she was too embarrassed to say no.

So sheer stupidity seems to be a common factor. No wonder there are so many people who hate their lives and spouses if they put more thought into booking a holiday for example, than who to procreate with and tangle themselves up legally with.

*unmarried not unmarked! FFS.

Maybe I'm being too harsh but it does continually shock me. I didn't have a honeymoon period with my DH as I had known him before we got together and I had a newborn with someone else so any faults of his became apparent very quickly.

joan, I that seems a ridiculous way to carry on. Someone keeps saying no for over 10 years but you still think they don't mean it? He said (to me) that as far as he was concerned they had agreed no children and the method of contraception they would be using to prevent this. It seems he didn't want to have an unnecessary medical procedure which I think of as quite understandable.

All the above reasons that others have mentioned plus the timing.
Meeting the wrong person at the wrong time. I.e. i met my abusive ex who was wonderful at the begining when i was at a low point. Most of us go through phases in life, sometimes we are low, sometimes more confident, sometimes more emotional.

I met dh when i was happy and confident and i didnt want a man.

It is easy to talk about other people's mistakes in relationships or money, careers etc when you feel that you havent made any mistakes. I am not saying this to criticise you, i have friends who always used their logic in life and thats good for them and for you. I hope my dcs will be like this.
But some of us have made mistakes for various reasons.

What's with these men who are complete manchilds and the women who facilitate it?

I see so many female friends and family who have been successful and worked hard getting with complete losers who won't step up and deal with any responsibilities. These women have children, continue to work, pay for childcare, run the household and the men do jack, or at least never settle at a job and stick with it long enough to get decent money, never do their share of housework, spend lots of money and time on their own toys/hobbies rather than their wife and children.

I'm reaching the conclusion that this is what the women prefer. In some really odd way they want to feel like they're in control and running everything and in order to do that they prefer to be with a second (third or fourth) rate partner. After a while they realise that this is a bit pointless but of course by then it's too late.

Mamapain, I do agree - I'm just trying to imagine how it could have occurred I suppose.

My friend married in haste to a man with debts. She ia now horrified that he has dragged her into debt. I struggle to listen to her tales of woe sympathetically.