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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Fact or opinion?

60 replies

CrohnicallyPissedOff · 08/09/2014 20:02

During a training course, we had to identify whether statements were fact or opinion. I had a slight disagreement with the course leader over this one- 'Mum said that her daughter didn't eat the sweets'

One of us said that the statement was an opinion, because the truth of whether the daughter ate the sweets could not be corroborated by the observer, therefore it couldn't be considered fact.

The other said that the statement was fact, because mum did say that, and her saying it could be corroborated, regardless of whether mum was telling the truth or not.

Which of us is BU?

OP posts:
Original poster
CrohnicallyPissedOff · 08/09/2014 21:12

vitalstatistix that question also cropped up during the discussion, and we unanimously decided that if the mum said it to the person writing the report, it was relevant and could be included, regardless of whether it was fact or not.

Oh- and in the context of the task, it wasn't actually poorly worded at all. Think along the lines of a crime scene report, we had to omit irrelevant information and select facts to include. So we could include the fact that mum said the daughter didn't eat the sweets, but we wouldn't have been allowed to put that the daughter didn't eat the sweets, as we didn't know that to be the case.

OP posts:
Vitalstatistix · 08/09/2014 21:18

My god, if you don't think a thread is interesting, close the bugger. Who the fuck cares what you think?

NoSquirrels · 08/09/2014 21:49

Fair do's, I retract my accusation of pedantry! Grin

LuluJakey1 · 08/09/2014 21:50

Probably about the same number who give a toss what you think - no one Smile

Night night!

Vitalstatistix · 08/09/2014 21:56

I don't expect they do, but I am not spiteful enough to come onto a thread and spew forth some pointless and nasty comment about it.

If a thread does not interest me, I click away, I don't try to be rude to the person who started it because that is not necessary.

night.

LuluJakey1 · 08/09/2014 22:25

But you do use foul language to other posters as it suits you which is incredibly rude- the other posters who think this is a boring thread are entitled to say so, no one was being rude to you.

Never mind, I am sure we have all had enough and will all try to be as well mannered as you in the future.

icymaiden · 08/09/2014 23:32

I would say fact.the mother is presenting it as fact.
But DD2 who is only 9 recently had an argument debate with her teacher about this , and frankly I am confused now.
'I think it will rain' , she argues is a fact because it is a fact that her mind has this thought in it

icymaiden · 08/09/2014 23:33

I think it is an interesting thread or should I say, this thread interests me.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/09/2014 23:39

It is a fact that the mother stated her opinion

SweetsForMySweet · 08/09/2014 23:52

The statement is a fact about mum's opinion

attheendoftheday · 09/09/2014 00:22

I have been teaching a course including this very subject recently (are you a northern nurse by any chance?) I would agree it is definitely a fact, you witnessed the mother say it, and it is largely irrelevant whether the statement is true.

Lulu, I'm glad your valuable contribution has improved the quality of the thread Hmm

OnIlkelyMoorBahtat · 09/09/2014 10:32

The statement is a fact because it's relaying a fact, the fact that Mum said 'blah blah blah'. Don't be apologing for "pedantry" merely because you were right!

OnIlkelyMoorBahtat · 09/09/2014 10:33

Or "apologising", even!

Surfsup1 · 09/09/2014 10:55

It's a fact.
I't not necessarily a fact about an opinion though. It could be a fact about a fact - i.e. if the mum ate the sweets then her statement is not just her opinion but a known (to her) fact.

Surfsup1 · 09/09/2014 10:57

icymaiden your daughter is correct!

Booboostoo · 09/09/2014 11:17

I care about this thread and would have been like a dog with a bone had I been on this course - everyone should care about logic.

The sentence is "Mum said X" so it's a matter of fact whose truth is dependent on whether she did indeed say it or not.

The truth of X itself depends on the provenance of X which we know nothing about it (e.g. If the mum said "my daughter didn't eat the sweets as I know she would never do that" is the mother's opinion (belief) rather than fact (knowledge)).

Why was the instructor using such vague terms? The correct terms are 'knowledge' and 'belief'. There are three conditions for knowledge so if M knows X:

  1. X must be true
  2. M has to believe that X is true
  3. M is justified in believing thanX is true

(And the Gettier complicates things, but if people were bored with the OP, they will be suicidal by now!)

Oakmaiden · 09/09/2014 11:24

Surfsup - you said EXACTLY what I wanted to say. If the Mum knows who ate the sweets, and knows it wasn't he daughter than both her statement is fact and the fact she has said it is also fact.

Too many facts here...

steppemum · 09/09/2014 11:32

I think that is a fact for 2 reasons

  1. it is a fact that the mother said it
  2. My daughter didn't eat the sweets is not an opinion, it is either true or false, but it isn't an opinion, because you can prove who ate the sweets.

My daughter is pretty is an opinion. My daughter doesn't like sweets is a fact verifiable by talking to the daughter. My daughter is clever is an opinion based on how mum defines clever.

Actually the more examples I try to think up, the more I think that these are facts which can be proven by talking to the daughter, ie facts that the mum has got wrong (or right) not opinions, as you can never prove an opinion right or wrong.
However I suspect I am over thinking this beyond the remit of the course!

steppemum · 09/09/2014 11:33

Oh Booboo, just saw your post.

brilliant . I am in awe.

steppemum · 09/09/2014 11:34

which is a fact, based on my opinion that what you said is good!

hotfuzzra · 09/09/2014 12:06

As a police officer I would not include this in a list of 'facts' following a crime!
I don't know if the mum is lying, or she ate them herself, or she saw who did eat them and wants to cover for them too... Etc (all unlikely but you know...)
So it would never be considered as fact.
Until I read your follow up post about the context I would have agreed, as she did say that so it is a fact that she said it, but in the context of it being a fact and relevant to a possibly crime it isn't a fact. She may be lying.

hotfuzzra · 09/09/2014 12:07

Oh, and unless I've seen something with my own eyes it is never 100% true!

Original poster
CrohnicallyPissedOff · 09/09/2014 13:04

hotfuzz that was an example, it wasn't the actual context. Besides, when writing the report would you really not include that 'mum said...' and write down exactly what she said? Everything you say can be given in evidence and all that?

OP posts:
Booboostoo · 09/09/2014 14:23

steppemum don't be in awe of me! Any philosophy 101 student should know this stuff, it's a bit sad the course tutor didn't! If I had my way philosophy would be compulsory at all levels of education - and that is a fact! Grin

hotfuzzra · 09/09/2014 15:38

Yes I'd record that she said it of course, but I wouldn't rely on it as fact, was all I was (badly) trying to say.