who do you think IBU?

[dancingwithmyselfandthecat]

I am friends with a hetrosexual couple who have been together for the last six years and now live together. They are early/mid thirties

The man has always been clear he doesn't want children. Probably not clear enough when you take into account that having children is the "usual" setting and people assume that you will change your mind when you get older, but clear nonetheless.

The woman has always wanted marriage and children. She assumed that he would come around on the basis that most men in their late 20s don't go around talking about having children but most do later. (I am paraphrasing her view). Over the last year, she has been dropping increasingly heavy hints.

A couple of nights ago she made a joke about "helping" him along with an "accidental" pregnancy. (I don't know exactly what she said as I wasn't there).

The man reacted very badly. He told her that he unequivocally didn't want children, would not sleep with her without a condom as well as proof of another contraceptive and that if she did become pregnant he would provide no more support than the bare financial minimum.

Woman walked out, because she can't stay with a man who doesn't trust her, and is sleeping in my spare room.

Obviously this is none of my business, and I've seen enough break ups to keep my views to myself, but I'm interested who you think is BU. I think woman is - but then I have very strong views about tricking a man into getting you pregnant, and I've seen a scenario where it didn't end well (seperation, abortion). DH thinks man is BU because he should have spelled out that "I don't want children" means "never ever ever" a long time ago.

She is BVU. Any trust he had in her will be gone after the comments of he the "accidental" pregnancy. Women who do that are truly despicable.

He was straight from the start with regards to his views and has the right to stand by them. She took a gamble and lost.

Thanks for all your views.

To clarify, I don't think that either are BU for wanting/not wanting to have children, but I do think that Woman is BU for hinting and for making a joke about an accidental pregnancy.

It's so sad because they are a lovely couple and well suited in every other respect (well, they seem to be, and woman says so). She is convinced that if she hadn't made the joke and just gone ahead and done it all would be fine - I have tried to explain that if he reacted like this to the joke, a reaction to an actual pregnancy probably wouldn't have been any better.

I'm reluctant to offer advice, but what I'd love to say is that if she really wants children, she needs to leave him and put her cards on the table at a very early stage with any new man and/or start planning how she could become a mum on her own.

It's difficult for me, because I can see DH and I being here in a year or more, only the other way around. I've had four pregnancies end in miscarriage/stillbirth, none in children. I decided to take a few years away from TTC because of the mental strain, and I might never go back to it. Even if I did, there's no guarantee I could carry to term. DH knows this, but I wonder if to be fair I should start making it absolutely clear that it might not happen.

They are both NBU to have different views, but both BU to think the other will just change their minds eventually. And she is BVVVVVVVU to even mention getting pregnant "by accident". His reaction was completely reasonable and fair. In fact, if I were him I'd be getting the snip.

I think whois has got the measure of it.

What whois said.

Plus. Why insist on using a condom plus "proof" of other contraception.
He could just get a vasectomy if he is so sure of his position.

They should split really because this is an untenable situation.

She was unreasonable to make a joke of "accidentally" getting pregnant.

As others have said they should split though.

She is. IMO she did a very stereotypical thing of assuming a man doesn't know his own mind when it comes to children AND thinking she could 'change' him. Perfect fodder for an episode of any soap!

She was being unreasonable to think that she could change his mind, and to joke about an accidental pregnancy. Tricking someone into fathering a child is not something you joke about.

He would be better off without her.

Agree woman IBU.

You don't "drop hints" about whether you're on the same page regarding a baby. If you need to have a conversation, have it, but dropping hints is ridiculous.

And as for the "accident" comment - well of course he doesn't trust her after that!

Neither of them is being unreasonable. They just want different things and should split up.

I have to say my husband was absolutely adamant that he would never have children when we met, he was 29, I was 21. By the time I was 26 and he was 35 he'd changed his mind. We had fertility problems so didn't have children until I was 33 and he was 41, but he absolutely adores our son and loves being a Dad.

I have to say that I think an awful lot of people would agree in their experience it is very common for men who do not want children or a family in their 20s to change their mind later. You just have to take the risk they'll change their mind. For some people it works out that way for some people it doesn't.

If either of them is being slightly unreasonable I would say it was her, because after 6 years together you should have a reasonable idea of whether they're going to come around or not. In my case I had seen that as nieces and nephews came along and our friends had kids he had become very fond of them and his attitude had softened. I have to say in this case it sounds like the bloke hasn't been giving any signals out. But they just need to split up really.

I agree with pp about many men changing their minds.
In fact, a friend of mine was devastated when his wife left. She had wanted kids, he hadn't. He even had a vasectomy. That was their main reason for splitting up.
She never had children as was in her late 30s and didnt meet the right man. It was heartbreaking. Just too late for her.
10 years later, lovely young wife and he gets his vasectomy reversed.

She was being unreasonable to make that joke and so fucking unreasonable to think she should have just gone ahead and done it instead! It's not a wonder he doesn't trust her, if that was my friend she'd certainly go down in my estimations.

To be honest, they should both cut their losses. He won't trust her now and she's tempted to go ahead and trap him. He should get a vasectomy but even if he got one today, there's a period in which conception is a possibility before it's fully done. If he gets a vasectomy, do you think it would change her mind about staying with him? Because she shouldn't compromise what she really wants just to stay with him, that's not fair either.

I'm sorry for what you've gone through OP. For you and your DH, are you worried he's not accepting the possibility of that?

In this specific moment she IBU, suggesting tricking someone into fatherhood is no joking matter and I'm not surprised he feels unable to trust her.

But, he was unreasonable to carry on a relationship with someone he knew wanted children without spelling out to her that he really was never going to change his mind.

I agree with PP though. They will split over this and within a few years he will be having children with someone else.

Sorry about your miscarriages OP.
But you cant really be clear with your DH because you're not sure yourself. You say you might never go back to ttc.

SIBU. I hate it when women think they can 'accident my' get pregnant knowing full well the man doesn't want a child. I think the man is absolutely right to insist on double contraception. At least he is being honest and up front about it.

I know someone who really wanted another DC and at the time her DH wasn't convinced. She told me she would be getting pregnant either way and I know she meant it and would've done it. He did actually come around in the end but probably because she said she would never have sex with him again if he didn't.

I know its wrong to "trap" a dp in this way. But I feel for her. The "joke" was her just bursting with how much she wants a baby. She is desperate for him to change his mind. And many men do just that over time. I think he has been quite unkind in his response.
It wasn't unreasonable of her to expect him to change his mind. He needn't have been so harsh with her imo. She is saying she is desperate for a baby. That is a very powerful drive for some ppl. There are a dozen other more thoughtful/ gentle ways he could have responded.
I am not liking the sound of him actually.

TheRealAmandaClarke How do you know this joke isn't the last in a long line of hints if she is that desperate for a baby? The DP could have insisted time after time that he didn't want a baby and wouldn't change his mind but she would only hear what she wanted.

My friend never wants kids yet can't get herself sorted yet because of her age (under 30) she is very certain she never wants and has broken up with people for hinting and not getting. She spent 2 years with an exDP who used to joke an hint as though she would change her mind, she stayed with him because she loved him and despite the comments he said he understood. When she had to come off the pill she saw how much he 'understood' when he tried to take off the condom just before sex. She dumped him that night and never looked back.

Really they should just break up. For her sake she should. For his sake, he should.

Well yes you and Dh do need to talk - about what happens if either you can't face it again or if it isn't possible - whether you try other routes to parenting or whether he could cope if there were no children. You are on the same page now - you might try for children in your future based on your known and shared history. They wanted very different things it really isn't the same as fertility or issues carrying to term affecting the potential outcome of your parentage.

Well, i think she was BU, but then so was he, he knew he was with a woman who wanted DCs, she'd dropped hints and he hadn't spelt it out. He must have known that sooner or later, it would be an issue, or was he hoping to string her along without having to spell it out (and have her leave him), until she couldn't?

For you - you should put your cards on the table with your DH now. If DCs aren't something you want/feel you can do, then he needs to decide what means more to him, being with you or having DCs of his own.

Like your friend's DP, you are not spelling out it's a 'never' in the hope it'll not be an issue, and he's bobbing along thinking that you're "on a break" from TTC, not that its stopped forever so he doesn't have to make the choice.

I think he would be well shot of her, she can't think much of him if she is willing to make jokes about accidental pregnancy. Even if he wanted DC she doesn't sound like somebody anybody would want to seriously consider having children with, she sounds selfish and underhanded.

hormonal its entirely possible its the latest in a line of comments. Which is why i think he ibu.
I believe he knows how she yearns for a child. That feeling doesnt go away ime. Ppl dont just change their mind about it until they actually have the little monkeys
Plenty of people, male and female, have a change of heart in the other direction. Which is one of the reasons your friend cant "get herself sorted".
She is very likely to change her mind in her mid to late 30s.

On the contrary, she probably thinks a great deal of him. She wants to be the mother of his children.
They need to split because she wants children. All we know about his wishes is that he doesnt want children with her.

It sounds like she made the comment because she does want children and wanted to see his response.

I don't think the relationship is going to work out if they disagree over something so fundamental. She would be better off ending it sooner rather than later.

It wouldn't be reasonable of her to trap him with a deliberate lie. On the other hand it isn't reasonable for him to force her to use contraception, if he wants to double up the risk reduction he could have a vasectomy or avoid piv sex. Sounds as though it's doomed regardless.

She is BU to joke, but his reaction is not one of a kind and loving partner.

Better they end the relationship, really.

Echoing others, she is being unreasonable I'm afraid. its very undermining of her to "assume he'll change his mind", when he has clearly stated otherwise. Its condescending and patronizing, assuming she's wiser, kind of how a parent thinks of a child's opinion.

I think they need to decide weather to carry on with no chance of children or seperate so she can hopefully find someone else who does want children. it's hard all round though, got a lot of sympathy.