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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To challenge seller on ripping out fireplace

59 replies

EMS23 · 28/08/2014 19:26

We've just moved into our new home which had a log burning fire when we looked round and is mentioned on estate agents info as a 'feature'.

Moved in and she's taken it. I've checked the sellers info form and it's just not mentioned on it at all.

She has however left us with a faulty electric cooker and a broken washing machine, not to mention a filthy house and broken glass panes in 2 of the internal doors - she knew we were moving in with 3 DC's, two of which are toddlers so the broken jagged glass at hand height is particularly annoying.

I can live with the filthy house - I'd have cleaned it anyway. The cooker and washing machine is annoying but again, I was planning to replace them anyway but the log burner is beyond a joke. That's going to cost at least a grand to replace.

DH says not to bother bringing it up but I'm furious and want her to pay for the replacement.

So, AIBU to go after the money or is it not worth the effort?

OP posts:
hiddenhome · 28/08/2014 21:41

Everyone knows Estate Agents lie. This is why you have a solicitor draw up the contracts Hmm

Mintyy · 28/08/2014 21:48

Why are you blaming the Estate Agent in this case hiddenhome? That's a bit lazy of you. Seems far more likely that the vendor has been underhand. The EA should have a copy of the sales particulars, signed by the vendor, to confirm that everything mentioned therein is indeed for sale.

EddieStobbart · 28/08/2014 21:54

I didn't realise fires weren't a fixture unless specifically stated as otherwise. The seller of of the house I bought ripped out some fancy light fitting but left us with two nice stoves. I'm amazed they can be taken.

hiddenhome · 28/08/2014 21:56

Lol, so naive.

You ignore everything the EA tells you and you do everything through the solicitors.

We've bought and sold quite a few properties now and all EA's are conniving fools. You disregard everything they tell you and do your own research. You even need to supervise your solicitor unless you have a competent, reliable one.

Hissy · 28/08/2014 22:06

misrepresentations act 1967 - agents have to abide by this.

Types of misrepresentation
A misrepresentation is a statement of fact (not opinion) which is made by the seller before the contract is made.
If you relied on that statement when deciding whether or not to go ahead with your purchase, and this then turns out to be wrong, you can claim compensation.

If the Seller has approved the details, and the fire IS mentioned on there then there may be a case for taking this up with them.

if the purchaser was given cause to believe, with corroboration, that the fire was a feature or fixture of the house, then it would be reasonable to suggest that the fire was included. if the purchaser could state that they factored this into their decision making when buying the house, and leaving their own would be prime proof of this, then i'd say there was milage in taking this up.

most of my clients are EAs, they regularly get called up on issues regarding misrepresentation. we produced marketing/sales materials, sometimes we have to trawl through accounts and archives to locate brochures where misrepresentation has been alleged.

OP, contact your lawyer, contact the EA and state that you expect compensation for the loss of something you expected to be there.

Hissy · 28/08/2014 22:07

what have you got to lose?

good luck.

tomatoplantproject · 28/08/2014 22:09

We have had a v similar discussion about whether or not we can take our burner with us, and we have decided we will do so (we spent a lot of time and money getting the perfect one). And we have mentioned it in the forms so no surprises.

Did you not go through the paperwork with a fine toothcomb? If it was that important to you then you should have picked it up then (sorry to sound harsh). I agree about having to supervise your solicitor - he or she will be guided by you re what is important. This is one you might have to chalk up to experience.

Merel · 28/08/2014 22:11

Please do check with your solicitor, but you probably don't have a case since you signed off the form with everything included in the sale which did not mention the burner. You might have to write this one off to experience.

EMS23 · 28/08/2014 22:22

Thanks for the further replies and views.
Hissy - I will bear your advice in mind. I've rechecked the EA's property details and it specifically mentions the log burner as a feature of the lounge.

I also mentioned it to the seller on our second viewing, after she had accepted our offer. I said 'oh that's nice, it's the same burner as we have at our current home so I'll bring the logs I've got in the garage'.
She just smiled.

Believe it or not, I have bought and sold quite a few properties for personal and business both here and abroad and am quite comfortable with the documents etc..
I did check the sellers fix and fittings list supplied by the solicitor but because I (clearly naively) assumed fireplaces were always included, I didn't look out for it.
I won't make that mistake again!!

OP posts:
Hissy · 28/08/2014 22:26

I think you have been misled. the vendor knew what she was doing.

go for it. it's going to be worth a try anyway!

Mintyy · 28/08/2014 22:28

I completely agree with Hissy. The fact that it was on the EA particulars is brilliant and crucial.

EMS23 · 28/08/2014 22:38

Thanks Mintyy and Hissy, I'll return to this thread to update on how I get on with solicitor and EA tomorrow.

OP posts:
Blu · 28/08/2014 22:39

If it was there, fitted into the fireplace, and she was planning on taking it, she should have listed it as an item, and then said she was taking it, surely?

When I have sold (3 times now) I have been given a standard form with lists of all sorts of potential fittings and had to tick each one, 'none at property' or leaving or taking. Then there have been spaces to add anything else not listed and to tick leave or take.

The solicitor won't usually have seen the house so won't know to ask 'is there a woodburner?'

On a technicality, you may not be able to reclaim the stove, but I thnk she has behaved outrageously - and consciously so.

Blu · 28/08/2014 22:42

There's not much point in the EA details listing things that won't be staying, is there? Surely the details are to advertise what is being sold.

Otherwise the brochures would say 'and there is a fabulous Bang and Olufson sound system on the living room shelf' .

The EA is acting on behalf of the vendor. Advertising on her behalf what she has to sell. She advertised her woodburner.

daisychain01 · 28/08/2014 22:45

I also agree with Mintyy and Hissy.

There will be some technicality (in specific terms) that your solicitor can confirm, regarding what constitutes the removal of something that is classed as "fabric of the house", so you can determine whether your vendor was entitled to remove or not.

Then you can slug it out through the solicitors as it is so recent.

My thought is, if it involved significant disconnection (ie more than unplugging a heater from the wall) then your case will be strong. And if you can take photos of any damage to the surrounding area then it strengthens things further.

Unless I am mistaken there was a recent amendment to the law regarding EA details. They must be very accurate and may be legally binding. Thats why EAs tend to have those electronic laser measures. They are convenient, but they are also mitigating the risk of overstating room dimensions. Worth checking. If they list the stove, then it is likely to be part of the fabric and wouldn't necessarily appear on a Fixtures list. I mean, you wouldn't include every tree, cupboard door or bath panel, because those are reasonably going to be left in situ.

londonrach · 28/08/2014 22:49

Patents just sold their house and had a form they filled in before they left their house stating what they leaving. Not sure re ea details as they decided to leave the summer house and sheds but originally planned to take them. They also left a new home card and a bottle of wine. Talk to solicitor like others suggested and report back here..

HarrietdeBagotSoay · 28/08/2014 23:05

It would never have occurred to me either that someone would remove a fireplace. That sounds crazy to me but maybe this is partially cultural. Def call your solicitors and see if you can do anything.

Reepits · 28/08/2014 23:14

It should have been listed ad staying or going.

Our vendors wanted to take the bathroom cabinets, the heated towel rails, which are actually the radiators and the bog roll holders ( I shit you not), basically they wanted to strip out all fittings from the bathroom. Then they found to they would have to make good with new rads etc, so they backed down, but made us buy the bathroom cabinets. Twats.

Hissy · 29/08/2014 00:08

don't suppose by some extraordinary stroke of luck there are PHOTOS taken of the room that show the wood burner...

were the photos professionally taken? by an outside company other than the EA?

if they were and if the company began with N.. PM me and i'll see if it was one of ours. i'd need the postcode of the property.

Hissy · 29/08/2014 00:15

just saw this on the HRMC site:

Property law distinguishes between chattels and fixtures. A chattel is an asset, which is tangible and moveable. A chattel may become a fixture if it is fixed to a building or land. For example, before it is installed in a building as part of a central heating system, a central heating radiator is a chattel. Once installed, it becomes a fixture.

The courts have developed two tests for determining whether an asset is a fixture or a chattel:
the method and degree of annexation,
the object and purpose of annexation.
The first test is not conclusive. Some degree of physical affixation is required before a chattel becomes a fixture. If the asset cannot be removed without serious damage to, or destruction of, the building or land, that is strong evidence that it is a fixture. But it is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition.

The second test is now accorded greater significance by the courts than the first. The courts look at the purpose and intention of the asset and its affixation. If, when viewed objectively, it is intended to be permanent and effect a lasting improvement to the property, the asset is a fixture. If the attachment is temporary and is no more than is necessary for the asset to be used and enjoyed, the asset remains a chattel.

www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/camanual/ca26025.htm

Hissy · 29/08/2014 00:18

I know nothing about nothing, but i'd say that sounds like a FIRE...

if it costs all that to install is, it extensive work is required to remove it. it's a FIXTURE and needs to be returned/reinstated.

BOFster · 29/08/2014 00:18

Hmm, so where would you put a log-burner by that logic, Hissy? Confused

Hissy · 29/08/2014 00:25

Property misdiscriptions:

House selling: Describing your property correctly

This article from Lawpack's Sell your own Home Kit discusses the duties and requirements imposed on a house seller by the Property Misdescriptions Act.

The Property Misdescriptions Act 1991 makes it a criminal offence for estate agents and property developers to dishonestly and misleadingly describe property they are selling. The Property Misdescriptions Act does not apply to individuals who sell their homes privately. However, this does not mean that you can be economical with the truth. In fact, quite the reverse.

If someone buys your property on the basis of misleading information you have given them either verbally or in writing, or in the property details you have written, they could sue you for damages for misrepresentation; if they discover the misrespresentation after contracts have been exchanged (or missives concluded in Scotland) but before completion, they may even be entitled to pull out of the deal.

A quick look at the provisions of the Property Misdescriptions Act which in effect extends to estate agents and property developers the same obligations that a private seller has, is a good guide to what is acceptable practice when describing a property for sale.

You must make no misrepresentations of fact, and if you don't know the answer to a particular question asked by the house buyer, it's better to say so than to make up what you think they might want to hear.

The Property Misdescriptions Act can be downloaded from the Office of Public Sector Information's website at www.opsi.gov.uk and is enforced by local Trading Standards Officers. One local authority has produced the following guidance for estate agents and property developers which provides useful tips as to what is acceptable practice under the Act.

A property can be presented in its best light, provided it doesn't mislead.

Terms such as 'immaculate condition' or 'recently decorated' can be used but they must refer to the whole property unless otherwise stated.

Attractive features can be used as selling points but not to the exclusion of bad features if the overall result is a misleading description. You are not required to disclose a leaky roof, say, but your description taken as a whole must not give the impression that the property does not have this defect.

Don't stretch geographic areas, such as Cotswolds, Peak District or Lake District, beyond their accepted boundaries. Use instead the correct postal address. And if a property is in one county geographically but its postal address is in an adjoining county, both should be given equal prominence.

Phrases such as 'easy access' or 'close to' or estimated journey times to local amenities or transport links should be avoided in favour of the actual distance in miles, i.e. '10 miles to junction 12 on the M4', or 'six miles from Cirencester'.

If a house has open fields on three sides but an abattoir or a nightclub on the fourth it is best not to refer to the outlook at all, and if you use photographs, clearly label them.

Photographs can be misleading. Avoid using a very wide angle lens which can make a property look much larger than it is and avoid digitally enhancing a photograph or cropping if the resulting effect is misleading. For example, do not include a view of the garden from the bedroom window if there is a rubbish dump next door and you have cropped the picture to remove it.
Details produced by estate agents normally include a disclaimer and although this may not be legally binding, it is useful to remind house buyers that even with the best will in the world, mistakes can be made and buyers should beware and check for themselves the accuracy of all measurements and statements.

A disclaimer could include the following:

These particulars are intended to give a fair and substantially correct overall description for the guidance of intending purchasers and do not constitute an offer or part of a contract. Prospective purchasers and/or lessees ought to seek their own professional advice.

All descriptions, dimensions, areas, references to condition and necessary permissions for use and occupation and other details are given in good faith and are believed to be correct, but any intending purchasers should not rely on them as statements or representations of fact, but must satisfy themselves by inspection or otherwise as to the correctness of each of them.

All measurements are approximate.

EMS23 · 29/08/2014 00:28

Hissy - PM sent, there is a photo!

OP posts:
PenisesAreNotPink · 29/08/2014 00:31

It's a fixture if it's connected to things.

Ours ran the radiators and filled the hot water tank and cost £6k to install - it would not have been ok to take it and leave someone without heating