to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

Well, I took him to mean "If the Better Together campaigns argument is that United Kingdom after the Referendum will forge a better future for Scotland then why is that not happening now?"

It doesn't. It means we're better off staying together.

Why does it take a Referendum or the threat of a possible Yes vote for Westminster to make certain promises to Scotland?

I mean this nicely- but what more do you want? We receive more in spending than we contribute in tax. There are several devolved areas which protect our historical legal and education systems.

One of the big problems the referendum has highlighted is that Scotland's votes in the General Election doesn't always 'make a difference'. Well, it's absurd to suggest that we get any more than one vote per individual!

It doesn't. It means we're better off staying together

That 'better' is not very good then, for Scotland, is it?

I suppose I am coming from the point of view of having witnessed too much utter misery and hardship from well before the economic crash (then of course compounded by it) that affected too many 'hard working families' . I have every expectation that whichever the Ref goes my own personal life will not change much.

That 'better' is not very good then, for Scotland, is it?

What 'better'? The BT campaign believes (as do I) that an independent Scotland would be in worse straits. I am not saying that there is no hardship and misery in Scotland just now. I really do believe that for a period of 10-25 years, there would be more hardship and misery in an independent Scotland. That's why it's 'better together'.

I really do believe that for a period of 10-25 years, there would be more hardship and misery in an independent Scotland.

Yes, I think that is entirely possible.

I guess I have a different view Pacific. I grew up in a pretty shit area, I've got plenty experience of the reality of hardship. But I don't think Scotland is bad. I'm not sure what you see as so bad, or why independence will fix it/

For me, independence will probably make my life quite a lot worse and I think there are a fair number like me. But I don't think, in reality, there are considerable numbers for whom it will make life much better at all.

The impact on me is very much not the only reason I'm a no voter, btw.

People often compare Finland to Scotland saying that because Finland with a similar sized population could do it, so can Scotland. Finland and Scotland are very different countries.
What people are failing to mention is that in Finland taxes are high. The cost of living is extortionate. Food is eye wateringly expensive. The national health service is not free to use. Prescription medicines are expensive. There are lots of very good things about Finland but it is not cheap. I fear that Scotland will end up like that too if it becomes independent.

The currency issue scares me too. Alex Salmond keeps going on about the pound and the currency union. Why would you want to have a currency which would essentially be controlled by a foreign country. I don't get it.

IMO there are 2 possible reasons to vote Yes: for a better life (who knows?) or due to national pride i.e. a fairly woolly emotional reason.

I understand the need for self-determination and how disenfranchised many Scottish people feel.
I am unconvinced by either sides promises/threats, but I see a historic opportunity.

I know some people don't like the emphasis on the economic arguments, but for me they are key. If the economy isn't right, you can't do all the other things. All the aspirations in the white paper are just aspirations.

I was really baffled last night when on Scotland 2014 (only caught the end - that programme is really a disappointment) someone from Women for Indy sat with a smug smile announcing that Alistair Darling had admitted we could use the pound. He's said that before - but the really important aspect is that he means using the pound without a currency union, which could have disastrous consequences. Scotland would need a currency union much more than the rest of the UK does. Yes, there is the option not to pay the debt. That isn't ideal for the rest of the UK, but the debt and currency aren't the only things to be negotiated on, and if they had to take the debt on I'm sure they could deal with it. I wouldn't expect favourable negotiations in any other area if that step was taken though. And internationally in borrowing terms it would be catastrophic, and I think there would need to be borrowing from day 1.

I agree OOAOML, the economic basics have to be right. The white paper is filled with aspirations, some of them very admirable. But also very expensive - and I don't see a convincing case that the numbers do work.

I don't feel disenfranchised. I don't currently have the government I voted for, but I get a chance to change that. And now that I am more politically engaged I'm fully prepared to campaign with others across the UK if that's what's needed.

A no vote isn't 'non-historic' though. I'd argue it's the opposite, looking at a shared history and deciding that yes, you can be Scottish and be very very proud of that, but you also believe that there are significant advantages in staying part of the United Kingdom.

The Yes campaign have promised everything under the sun, and their figures don't add up.

They want a currency union, which means Westminster is still in charge of the Scottish budget, and Scotland would have no way at all to influence that. If you feel disenfranchised now, what happens when (in the unlikely event, but bear with me) the CU is so tight that Scotland's spending plans are rejected? We would go in a different direction to Westminster- why would they sign off on that?

And then immigration. We have supposedly different values. Well, again, the Yes campaign wants to join the CTA. Whose common immigration policy is decided by Westminster. They're not going to change their needs for Scotland, and once again we wouldn't be able to do a thing, because we can't vote.

Even in the EU, Scotland won't be able to make decisions. There's a common immigration policy there too.

I don't really understand why anyone would feel disenfranchised and yet support this version of independence.

I don't feel disenfranchised.
Great .
But many are.

Yy re aspirations. I read the White Paper more as a Declaration of Intent rather than any kind of promise tbh.

For me, as an English Londoner who moved up to scotland 10 years ago, I see a real disparity between the huge investment and development in London in the past decade and major investment in Scotland.

A London relative bought a tiny flat 1-bed flat 2 years ago fir £230,000 and has just sold it for £308,000.

There are parts of the city ( which I love) that I honestly do not recognise any more due to pace of change in the Capital.

I fear scotland being left behind by Westminster. I fear my children having to move south to get work (like DP did)

Better together has offered nothing to alleviate my fears that the gap between our capital city and Scotland is becoming a gulf.

I don't trust the Westminster politicians to look after Scotland's interests.

It's a hard choice - and a risky one.

"In general people in the United Kingdom are less satisfied with their lives than the OECD average, with 74% of people saying they have more positive experiences in an average day (feelings of rest, pride in accomplishment, enjoyment, etc.) than negative ones (pain, worry, sadness, boredom, etc.). This figure is lower than the OECD average of 76%."

"In general, Finns are more satisfied with their lives than the OECD average, with 81% of people saying they have more positive experiences in an average day (feelings of rest, pride in accomplishment, enjoyment, etc.) than negative ones (pain, worry, sadness, boredom, etc.). This figure is higher than the OECD average of 76%."

This is the most important measure of success I think?

I feel disengaged by party politics - I'm interested in politics, but struggle to find how to get involved as there is no party which speaks to me. But that's true of UK and Scottish politics.

The problem is many see the White Paper as fact - this is what we will get in an independent Scotland. That concerns me. By all means, vote Yes if you believe in it. But don't vote yes because of what the white paper promises because the chances of all of it coming true are pretty remote.

Surprised that 81 % of Finns consider themselves 'satisfied' with their lives. Doesn't Finland have the highest suicide rate in Europe?

A no vote isn't 'non-historic' though. I'd argue it's the opposite

I agree, a No vote extinguishes Scotland as a country...

I'm afraid I really don't see how you can accurately measure happiness, ItsAll.

I agree, a No vote extinguishes Scotland as a country...

Absolute rubbish and scaremongering to boot.

I'd be more than happy to pay more tax (I am a higher rate tax payer) in return for more public services for all.

I agree with your observations about Scotland vs London/the South East, TheBogQueen

Yes, many do feel disenfranchised. I have some staunchly left wing friends who live in Kent. They struggle with disenfranchisement sometimes. My Scottish born sister who lives in the north of England feels massively disenfranchised by the referendum. It isn't unique to Scotland, I don't see Scotland as a single voting bloc, and I think is a better reason to stay in the UK and campaign for a better solution for all of us ( and the debate here has definitely ignited interest in these discussions elsewhere in the UK).

I actually feel most disenfranchised by the local council, where multi member wards makes it incredibly difficult to effect any change. (And where the bizarre voting in council meetings combined with the fact that Council employees appear to run the show with rubber-stamping by councillors means that completely bizarre decisions keep being taken)

m afraid I really don't see how you can accurately measure happiness

Methodology www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/

'd be more than happy to pay more tax (I am a higher rate tax payer) in return for more public services for all

Agree

I fear my children having to move south to get work

For at least some of us this is probably the reality of independence. I agree, London is it's own special little bubble though!

Edinburgh Council is a mystery - just how does it happen, it's ghastly. Utterly shameful in fact

I fear my children having to move south to get work (like DP did)

My DH will have to move south if there is a Yes vote!