To be shocked at how many people think having no contact with family is normal?

[dogscatsandbabies]

I'm a lurker. Can't help it, I find AIBU gets me through many a night feed. I'm always totally shocked at how blasé some posters can be when giving advice "she sounds unbearable to me, I'd go NC" and similar phrases.

Really? Just like that you'd advise someone you don't know to break all ties with a relative over a situation you've only heard one side of, creating a family situation that can become unbearable for husbands / wives / siblings who are very literally stuck in the middle?

I know there are some situations when decisions are taken not to see family anymore for various good reasons but I'd seriously hope these were carefully considered and thought through in time given the wider impact it can have. NC just seems so normal to so many. Is it just me that thinks (safety of children etc aside) most problems are at least worth working on?

basking

I think mumsnet is invaluable for offering people trapped in a cycle of unhappiness a way out - a realisation that it is okay not to be involved with people who do not have your best interests at heart, and who never will have

Yes yes and yes....again.

Society in all its forms makes us think we have to put up with constant negative behaviours no matter what they are, because its your mum or MIL doing it.

The tales of woe, people so miserable they cant enjoy thier lives, their self esteem rock bottom, no one understands....and MN has brought together many many women like this and said - actually there is another way...the way to freedom and happiness...

Very lovely for you op.

Now in the real world some families contain vile people in them that you are best away from.

No one makes this decision lightly and I have never ever seen anyone on mumsnet advise going non contact or LTB on a whim.

It's extremely commen in RL.

stillstaying

My idea of most problems is most problems I have faced. And I am lucky and grateful to say that there are a lot of things I haven't faced. But generally my approach is 'can I see the other point of view?' And even if I still disagree with it, if I can understand it then there is a starting point. I can see from responses that there are areas I have no experience or right to comment on. Point taken.

I do fully recognise BTW that there are some situations when NC is clearly best and if you read my original post you'll see my qualm is with the brief advice to others without knowing the whole situation, not necessarily the act of going NC.

Of course there are a few bonkers threads and some equally off the wall replies. But usually posters with genuine serious issues are given mostly well balanced advice, from a range of perspectives

Loads more serious issues needing help than one or two frivolous.

I know, its a topic I watch with interest due to my own massive PIL problems...and I get advice and try and support also.

If you have lived this horror....you see it in others and can tell when someone is suffering, perhaps if you have no experience of it, you are able to take it lightlu and no write it off.

Well no one " knows the whole situation " , either or Mn or in real life

We only know what others choose to tell us or show us

I'm prepared to believe that on occasion some posters may give a knee-jerk reaction of 'Go NC' when the situation doesn't warrant it.

However, I've yet to read a thread in which that occurs, and so I think it's pretty rare.

Also, yes, toxic people are often unaware of how crazy their behaviour is, or how much damage they do to others. The world tends to be centred around them, and anything you do is all about them.

I went NC with my mother for a while. If you read a thread by her talking about our relationship, it would certainly come across as heartbreaking. Why doesn't my daughter want me to stay with her? I just want us to be as close as we were before. She doesn't let me into her life any more, it's so sad.

You'd need to speak to me to find out that she tried to kill herself when I was 12 and told me it was my fault, or that she said I'd pass on a 'generation of hate' to my own children, or that when he was a child she told my younger brother he was a 'parasite, worse than a tapeworm'. Just a few choice examples.

If you haven't experienced this stuff yourself, it's hard to see why you would cut someone out of your life. But believe me, a hole is better than the presence of someone who constantly attacks and undermines you, and who will do the same to your own children.

In response to dogs' question: toxic families tend to have certain dynamics. A toxic parent may, for example, run the 'golden child/scapegoat' game, in which one child is held up as a shining example while the other is put down and abused. There are also often gender issues involved. A father may treat his daughter terribly because he has contempt for women, and raise his son to be a version of himself. In these cases, the scapegoat or the reviled daughter may choose to go NC, while the golden child or brother remain in the family. It's complicated.

Why should women have to compromise their own mental health and well being, to please a toxic family member, you would not put up with that from any other person, why because you are related does one have to put up with it! It's not taken lightly, sometimes it's years of emotional abuse, toxic behaviour, that it all gets too much. Op usually has tried her best, putting up with a lot of abuse from the family member that not only compromises her mental well being, but the toxic behaviour seeps onto her chikdren, so they can become affected. Yes yabvvvvu not all families are lovely.

Ime people do not go NC lightly or on the advice of just a faceless Internet forum it is far more traumatic than that and the OP would do well to have a bit more respect for something that is frankly like an illness when you are in the grip of it MN at its worst here

OP, can I ask you a question?

Can you imagine the level of pain someone must feel when they finally, slowly, come to the realisation that their parent does not love them. Moreover, this is often a parent that they've often spent a lifetime running themselves ragged to please.

It's a special kind of pain.

Dad was never secretive about not having wanted me. A family 'joke' he used to tell was 'I was asked - you have a boy and a girl, what do you want next? And I said 'a miscarriage...'

That was his attitude to me.

It was never a secret that he never wanted me. I thought, if I worked really, really hard, I could change that and make him love me. I was frantic about it. I got all the best grades at school ('98%? What happened to the other 2%?' was another hilarious 'joke'.) I made his hobbies my hobbies so we'd have a reason to hang out. I would staunchly defend him to anyone. I'd get the boot in with my siblings when there were row between them. I was the child and I made it my mission to defend him. He was not going to defend me ever.

He assaulted me a couple of times. I'm not talking about the smack round the back of the legs form of usual punishment. On one occasion he grabbed me and my brother by the hair and cracked our heads together. Another time he picked me up, shook me hard and flung me into a chair. I was totally to blame and at fault here (the first time he misconstrued a conversation I was having with my brother and the second time I had 'cheeked' his friends when they were visiting). All of this I fully believed to be my fault.

So there was I, a child, working my socks off to be the perfect being so that he would love me. And then, when I was 16, he did something that made it utterly apparent that it had not worked. I was not good enough for him.

I didn't go NC with him then. It wasn't until I had children and I suddenly realised how the parent/child relationship should work that I realised that what he had done to me for all those years was harmful. It wasn't until then that I realised that nobody who loved me could have possibly have done what he did. Not just the smacking and the assaults, but the whole package of 'you must not be who you are - you must only be the person I want'.

It was a hard, chokingly horrible time.

And yes, I still, every now and again, reach out to him because god-dammit I still want my father to love me.

The good news is, I've now had a bucketload of therapy, and that's helping with all of the pain a lot. So y'know, it's not all bad!

women are taught to please and put their own needs last so often, even when it is actively damaging to their own selves. i'm so grateful that there is a place on the internet where people are saying "you don't have to do that", even if they don't follow that, the option is opened up to them

Like being slapped in the face repeatedly and then seeing them once more in case they have changed only to find they slap,you again but harder

looking

This thread has been an education. Of course I cannot imagine that and it sickens me that any parent would treat their child in such a way.

Sometimes it takes outside objective opinion to confirm what you already know. Some peoples behaviour is so out of this world that any rational person cannot see the other side of it! How can you see the otherside of abuse! Sometimes you will never measure up to that toxic persons expectation, you never will so why put yourself through that, life is too short so you have to do what's best fir you and your children! No op, if you have never been on the receiving end of a toxic family member you will never understand. We advise on what op has written, often it is harrowing to read, years of abuse they have had to endure, how the toxic family member is starting on their children. Sometimes NC is tge only way!

Being bullied by someone in your own family is, as looking said, a special kind of pain.

I'm glad this thread has educated you OP.

Dogs, I think you're going to catch some flack here because of your thread title.

You do say in your post that you understand that some people go NC for good reasons, and you've said in the thread that you don't have experience of toxic family situations and so bow to others' knowledge on that front.

However, your title says that you're shocked at how many people think having no contact with family is normal.

This implies that having no contact with your family is abnormal and morally questionable, and also that it is undertaken lightly. Which is going to get a lot of people upset, for understandable reasons.

It also suggests that most people who are NC are NC for frivolous reasons, with only a small minority who have genuine complaints. I'd suggest that in fact there are, sadly, more abusive people out there than you think. Closed doors and all that.

I hope the responses here will give you some new perspectives on the issue, as I think you've asked a genuine question which was just framed in an unfortunate way.

Ah, just seen your last post.

• Some peoples behaviour is so out of this world that any rational person cannot see the other side of it! How can you see the otherside of abuse!

AERO LOOKING AND ADAM yy.

If you marry into a twisted dynamic it can also creep on you slowly....and before you know where you are, your run down, you dont make desicions in your own family as DH lets PILS do this, etc etc

dogs, I'm NC with my father. His only other family are a brother who has minimal contact (they're on facebook but haven't met in person for over 10 years), and my brother. My brother sees things differently to me, as he never lived with my dad (parents split when he was newborn), and my dad's violence/loathing was only directed at females.
However, over the last couple of years my dad's drinking has got worse and he finds it difficult to keep up the front he used to. My brother is starting to realise that it wasn't me exaggerating or being 'mental'. I don't know if my brother will go NC with dad, but he is certainly more understanding of why I am.

I totally acknowledge that, for some people, NC is the best thing for them.

But, I see what you're saying OP about how tricky it is to give advice without seeing both sides.

I have 2 family members who have had a falling out and barely speak, and having spent a lot of time with both of them and their friends/families, sometimes I think part of the problem is each of them receiving well-meaning advice from people who have only heard their side of the story so taken the side of whoever's told them and inadvertently enabled bad behaviors as a result. For example, A doesn't say Happy Birthday to B, B a declares that this is the final straw as proof A doesn't care and doesn't deserve their time (while being encouraged by friends who have never met A), without being aware that A is actually very ill so can't be in touch.

I know that's a fickle example, but all I can think of at present ...

Sorry, just in case you thought you were getting a thrashing from me, OP, I am sorry. As you can tell, it's like being poked in a very raw place!

I'm perfectly happy with being asked questions about it, particularly when people are genuinely interested in hearing the answers.

This sort of thread stirs me up, largely because there will be some people who will pass it off as 'sulking'.

What doesn't make it easy for anyone is that one way of trying to manipulate someone else is, of course, by not talking to them. The freezing you out or 'writing you out of the will' things can be used to manipulate others.

I can't very easily articulate what the difference is. I suppose the manipulation carries a rider 'I won't talk to you unless you...'

With going NC, Dad would have to have a whole personality transplant, not just do one thing, then another thing, then another. I don't want to have him in my life because of the way he continually makes me feel. He can't stop doing that.

Plus - I'm not asking him to change. I don't require him to change. I have found an alternative way of getting through life without expecting him to change. I suppose that's the difference. He is absolutely allowed to be who he is - I am absolutely allowed to not have him in my life.

To be honest, I still live in vague hope that he'll mellow with age which might make it possible for me to be around him.

I don't think it is seen as normal by people who are NC let alone those who aren't. Most people who are NC are acutely aware and quite sad that they have had to go down that route and not have a normal relationship. Nobody choses to be treated so badly that walking away is the only choice.

DH had no idea how normal families really worked, how disfunctional the relationship between him and his father was until he became a father and saw how he and other fathers interacted with and felt about their dc.

But actually we didn't chose NC. We were told not to contact him unless we behaved.

This part has been airbrushed out of his tale of woe. As he always does. I can imagine the post on Gransnet and you'd be weeping at DH's perfidy

Looking, you are right about the manipulation.

I was trying to find a way of expressing that, and you have done it very well by saying that manipulative silence is always a punishment, whereas going NC is simply to do with protecting yourself.

For manipulative people, silence and withdrawal are tools, used to force the other person into resuming contact under the manipulative person's rules.

For those who go NC, they do it because there is no hope of change. It is not about the other person. It is about survival.

While it might seem like it's something that people bandy about, what actually shocks me is the amount of appalling, abusive, manipulative, selfish and vicious behaviour perpetrated by family members, especially mothers and MILs very sad to say (because I am a feminist and don't want to see older women behave like this, but so many of them do). Stories on here and from friends, as well as my own experience of my toxic parents, tell me it's quite common yet there is a huge amount of social and family pressure to endure it because it's relatives.

I'm on the verge of going NC with my mum, and have been NC with my dad for years. My dad was easier, because he was SO beyond the pale, an absolute monster, mentally cruel, manipulative, childish and a (now convicted) paedophile. With my mum it's taken decades for me to get to this point because she is very clever at dressing up her vicious abuse as "concern" and trying to control me with presents and portraying herself as a lovely person. She brought me up to meet her emotional needs, reflect what she wanted to hear back at her and take responsibility for her feelings. The guilt I feel at the thought of hurting her is overwhelming, and if and when I do hurt her, or even dare to criticize at all, she plays the victim, cries and begs me not to "tell her off" .

And because I've found all this so hard to walk away from, I've endured over 40 years of having my appearance, weight, tastes and preferences picked to shreds, my secrets told to everyone, physical inappropriateness and lack of boundaries, being told my DP and kids are all subnormal or mentally ill, dealing with her hysterical needy meltdowns and demands, and like Looking said, the pain of deep down gradually realising that your parent does not really give a shit about you. All they want is for you to give them the positive feedback they need. You don't exist. My mum knowns nothing about who I am. It is all one-way, all about meeting her needs, treading on eggshells and being told I'm just like her.

If a friend had treated me like that they would be out of my life within days or weeks, and rightly so. But going NC with your mum is such a massive, massive taboo. One of the things I LOVE about MN is it's a place where the whole idea can be openly discussed and you will find people who understand and will present you with the possibility.

Because one thing you need if you do decide to go NC, is to go over the idea again and again and think about it and try to get your head round it.

YY, noddy.

Being NC with a family member is not seen as normal by those who have to do it.

I never felt that being NC with my mum was normal. Especially because so many people who have never experienced abuse say helpful things like 'But it's your mum!'

All I ever wanted was a normal family, but there's no hope of that. The best I can do is try and create it in my generation.