to wonder why the Gaza conflict DOES get so much more publicity than other atrocities in the Middle East?

[alAswad]

First of all I would like to make absolutely clear that this isn't an Israel-apologist thread, before anyone has a go at me. I've stated elsewhere that I find the actions of the Israeli government indefensible and I'm not interested in making excuses for them.

It's been raised a few times on the Israel-Palestine threads though that there are other atrocities happening in the region, some on a far bigger scale (the displacement and death toll from ISIS is enormous, including 40,000 members of a religious minority in Iraq currently under siege who will probably die in a matter of days without humanitarian assistance), that are only getting a fraction of the coverage that Gaza is. The response is generally that the Israel threads aren't the place to discuss those issues, which is fair enough, but I do think the disproportionate response is interesting and I'm curious as to where it comes from.

I've heard people explain it as anti-Semitism, which I'm sure some of it may well be, but my hunch is that it's to do with anti-Muslim/Arab feelings as well - people can shrug it off because they feel like it's 'typical' behaviour from Arabs, or that they can deal with their own conflicts and it doesn't concern us. I think maybe people see Israelis as more like 'us' in the West, perhaps because many are of European origin, and so hold them to higher standards. I don't have any evidence for that though, so I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

alAswad You are quite right about people reading and not posting. (I just felt I should pop up to prove up to prove that point.)

It feels like there are lots of dark and unsettling things happening in the world right now and it feels a bit odd to come up with a hierarchy of them. At a human level I know I've felt revolted by the atrocities in Gaza.

From an intellectual perspective I think this garners more discussion than other events as there's a near universal consensus that ISIS (for eg) is wrong and they are extremists, however there are people willing to make the case for the indefensible with Israel. Israel's aggression in Gaza is a breach of international law and it has committed war crimes. If anything the UK Govt and international response is understated.

I agree with CatfromJapan and Sashh that there is a difference between sovereign states and terrorists. Makes the world less secure if that were not the case.

It's very kind of you to say so halfdrunk, it feels like shouting into the wind sometimes so I'm glad you've enjoyed my posts I've felt the same way about yours, it's always nice to hear from people who seem measured and well-informed.

I'm surprised as well at people saying Palestine's not in the news much outside of actual wars - obviously there's less discussion then but I would have thought people would still be aware of the situation. As I mentioned previously I was aware that there were issues there even when I was a child, though of course I didn't understand much about it. And I'd guess I'm probably one of the youngest posters on this thread (no offence anyone! I just don't think many teenagers read Mumsnet...)

I just saw your post about Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria on the other thread and was pretty shocked - I had vaguely heard about Palestinians living in refugee camps there but I thought they were recent refugees, I didn't realise they'd been there for decades. That's definitely something I'll have to look into more, then. I also knew little about their general plight during my time in Israel - or rather, I'd heard a lot about it before I went, then changed my mind while I was there. Some of what I heard there was true, like people's own accounts of how they used to be afraid to leave their houses before the walls were built, and some (I now think) was people repeating propaganda that they'd heard and believed, and that I believed in turn because I knew they were good people and wouldn't deliberately lie to me.

One of the reasons I find it difficult to 'take sides' is because I still believe that the majority of Israelis are decent people who genuinely think they're doing what's necessary, as hard as it might be for the rest of the world to see it that way. For me personally that's probably the reason I'm taking such an interest now - as well as the fact that it's the first conflict I've ever had a personal connection to, I don't think I've ever had to completely reverse my opinion on an issue I felt so strongly about before, and I was surprised by how difficult it was.

On a side note I have a graphic novel about Israel that might be of interest to you halfdrunk if you're into that kind of thing - the copy I have is in German but it was written by an American, so I assume English versions exist as well. The title translates as 'Understanding Israel in 60 Days or Less' and the writer's first name is Sarah, can't remember her surname. She is Jewish, and it's a personal account of her participation in a Birthright trip that made her question her original beliefs about the Israel-Palestine situation and the guilt and inner conflict she faced over it (not really relevant to this thread but as I started it I guess I can stray wildly off-topic if I want!)

Actually none of that was really relevant to my original question Just as well it is my own thread!

thecat I believe you have in fact posted on the threads in In the News... in fact I know you have, because I remember reading your posts and liking them

MesM, that's my point in a way though - I don't think there should be a hierarchy, but I feel that by discussing some events more than others we're almost creating one implicitly. I've read firsthand accounts from Yazidi trapped on Mt. Sinjar who are quite bitter that Gaza seems to be getting all the headlines, perhaps not rightly but I think understandably under the circumstances.

I suppose there is more of a consensus around ISIS but there still seems to be little discussion in terms of what can be done about the situation, even if it's only things like emailing MPs to request we send humanitarian aid.

And plus, a large proportion of the Israel-Palestine threads is also made up of people agreeing with each other and just posting links to more stories about Israeli aggression - not that there's anything wrong with that but it does show that there doesn't need to be significant disagreement for a lengthy discussion to take place.

I think the fact that many people in the uk grew up Christian means that places such as Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem are mythologised. People then notice when the news relates to those places in any small way more than they do with provinces of Northern Iraq they've never heard of. And it jars when the Bethlehem of stars and baby Jesus turns out to actually be in a land that is contested and in conflict.

AlAswad, this graphic on Palestinians in Lebanon is from a website that has lots of interesting facts and figures about the region. I don't know if all the Palestinian refugees and their descendants are still in refugee camps run by the UN, but many are. (When I say refugee camps, it's densely-populated breezeblock type housing rather than tents).

The graphic novel sounds very interesting. (I did once read about a Birthright alumnus who became an International Solidarity Movement campaigner!) I am reading a very interesting book at the moment called "My Promised Land: The Triumph and Tragedy of Israel" by Ari Shavit. (Although I see that Norman Finkelstein didn't enjoy it so much, as he's written a rebuttal). It examines, amongst other things, how Israel has never properly addressed what happened to the Palestinians in 1948 which continues to plague it today.

I saw "Syrian School" on BBC4 a few years ago, which said that many Palestinians in Damascus are still in refugee camps; they had their own UN school. The teenage girls were saying that in some ways they felt at home in Syria, but being Palestinian was also a very important part of their identity and the nakba was still very much part of their consciousness.

Another thing I find frustrating about the I/P threads is that anyone who posts anything anti-Hamas or pro-Israel is likely to be written off as a Hasbara apologist who agrees with murdering children. After reading the past five threads my horror at what Israel is doing has definitely increased, and I don't agree with what they're doing, but I still find it interesting to look at things from both sides.

This thread has definitely inspired me to read more in the news about the wider Middle East and to try and improve my understanding of what is going on there.

My point is slightly different. It is unambiguous that Israel have committed gross violations of international law and it doesn't matter whether individuals think this necessary/ is justified or not. In my view this needs more focus not less.

I don't think diplomacy (or compassion) operate within a hierarchy. Intervention in Iraq today was not dependent on public campaigns.

On the face of it, it does seem ridiculous that Palestinians are still treated as refugees after being in neighbouring countries for decades now. But the problem is that these countries have their own internal problems that makes absorbing large Palestinian communities problematic. Lebanon has for a very long time operated on a fragile balance between Sunni, Shiite, Christian and Druze communities, their entire political system is based on sectarianism. The Palestinians add another layer of complexity and indeed were a factor in Lebanon's own 15 year civil war.

The other issue is that giving up refugee status dilutes the right of return argument.

I think the PR angle is interesting.

Is Gaza in the news / minds / hearts more than ISIS because they have a very good PR machine?

They always have. I remember in the 90s the heat would turn up as soon as the news cameras arrived. Eg Palestinian kids throwing rocks provoking Israeli response every time the camera ran.

They have spent over half a century wooing the media. And now they're very good at it.

Well I'm glad I started this discussion, people are coming up with all sorts of interesting things that I'd never even have considered

This actually came up in conversation with a stranger at a party the other day, who was clearly pro-Palestinian but was also talking about how he didn't feel that Israelis were bad people, just misled by their terrible government. I was impressed by how much he seemed to know about the situation - later on it turned out he was on the committee for a Friends of Palestine society, so that explained it. Anyway, it was the kind of politically-aware student environment where it's normal to debate current events, and most people had strong views (informed to varying degrees) on the Palestine situation, but when I mentioned ISIS no-one I was talking to had even heard of them. The closest I got to an opinion was 'apparently America wants to bomb Iraq again, isn't that typical'. I wouldn't judge anyone for not knowing what was going on, there's a hell of a lot happening in the world and no-one can keep up with everything, but again I think it's interesting that one gets so much more attention. (I do judge people for having an opinion on the US airstrikes when they themselves admit they haven't even heard of what's going on, but that's a whole other topic!)

halfdrunk I think I'll have to look up some firsthand accounts of the refugee situation - I'd be interested to know whether the refugees actually want to be granted full citizenship, or whether they'd rather be seen as Palestinian. dreaming makes a good point about right of return, and I wonder whether many would prefer to carry on holding out in the hope of being able to go back to their original land one day rather than accept new citizenship.

MesM I'm not sure I'm quite understanding your point properly, sorry - are you saying it doesn't matter how much attention issues get from the public, because the government will act on them whether they're 'popular' or not? (Not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely unsure of what you mean.)

That's a good point alAswad. It could be that many of them are still holding out for the right of return, although it doesn't seem a likely prospect at the moment. I do wonder if they could retain their Palestinian identity whilst being also accorded more rights and a better standard of living.

You've also made me feel very old alAswad! Surprised they had not heard of ISIS though.

I've been looking online about Palestinians in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. This says that: In Syria, where some 472,000 registered Palestinian refugees live in nine official and three unofficial camps, the refugees have the same rights and privileges as Syrian citizens, except citizenship. (This was written before the Arab Spring).

In Jordan the 1.9 million registered refugees have full Jordanian citizenship with the exception of about 120,000 refugees originally from the Gaza Strip who are eligible for temporary Jordanian passports, according to UNRWA.

So it looks like Palestinian refugees are worse off in Lebanon (I admit I am no expert on the Lebanese confessional political system or other aspects of its internal politics and history).

It made me feel a bit old too halfdrunk! I'm not even a student anymore, it took me until after I'd graduated to find out where all the typical student types were hanging out

That's an interesting article, I suppose the refugees aren't allowed to move from one country to another then. I don't know that much about Lebanese politics either, it seems strange though that they're not allowed to work in professions that would presumably be beneficial to Lebanese citizens, even if granting them permanent residence would be problematic from a political point of view.

There IS plenty to discuss here, if we wanted. We could talk about how this situation came about, what to do, how to help, who is wrong, etc.

I'd be very interested to hear your views on how we can prevent genocides in the first place - over on this thread I started.

(Thanks crescentmoon for your input over there)