to wonder why the Gaza conflict DOES get so much more publicity than other atrocities in the Middle East?

[alAswad]

First of all I would like to make absolutely clear that this isn't an Israel-apologist thread, before anyone has a go at me. I've stated elsewhere that I find the actions of the Israeli government indefensible and I'm not interested in making excuses for them.

It's been raised a few times on the Israel-Palestine threads though that there are other atrocities happening in the region, some on a far bigger scale (the displacement and death toll from ISIS is enormous, including 40,000 members of a religious minority in Iraq currently under siege who will probably die in a matter of days without humanitarian assistance), that are only getting a fraction of the coverage that Gaza is. The response is generally that the Israel threads aren't the place to discuss those issues, which is fair enough, but I do think the disproportionate response is interesting and I'm curious as to where it comes from.

I've heard people explain it as anti-Semitism, which I'm sure some of it may well be, but my hunch is that it's to do with anti-Muslim/Arab feelings as well - people can shrug it off because they feel like it's 'typical' behaviour from Arabs, or that they can deal with their own conflicts and it doesn't concern us. I think maybe people see Israelis as more like 'us' in the West, perhaps because many are of European origin, and so hold them to higher standards. I don't have any evidence for that though, so I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

X-post - I think the contribution to each thread is important as well as how many there are. There have 'only' been five threads about Gaza in In the News recently, but four of them are full and the fifth is getting that way, so it's about 5000 posts in total. Clicking on a completely random selection of the Syria threads, the longest I've seen are about 200 posts. For whatever reason, the Israel threads do seem to be generating more debate, at least at the moment.

OK, if you search the last option "Search thread titles - display title & messages", you get more than 500. But if you do the previous option- "Search thread titles" - you get 20.

So maybe the last option actually gives post numbers, rather than thread numbers.

So it's down to a mere new thread every 18 days for a year, with some of the threads running quite long.

Isn't this exactly where we came in, with perception of whether this is "virtually nothing" depending on the reader's level of interest in the issues?

There's coverage from Gaza - journalists, phone, internet connection.

There's no one in the mountains in Northern Iraq.

Oh sorry, see that's been covered above.

ISIS terrify me - more so than Hamas - Hamas seem contained, somehow.

I happily accept I might be wrong.

My mistake - there's a thread from last August that does have nearly 500 messages. I still think you'll find there have been significantly more on Israel in the last month alone, though.

I'd certainly expect threads on Israel to have increased dramatically during the last month, and to continue to be high for a while, depending what happens with the bombardment and aftermath. Then to drop off a bit if the banging stops.

Sad but true.

Should clarify that "sad but true" is a comment about the media in general, not the Israel/Gaza situation specifically.

Big bangs make better TV than daily minor attacks or slow deaths from cold and malnutrition.

One of the reasons that the Israel threads are so long is that some posters take alot of convincing that bombing sleeping children is never justified.

Without meaning to sound hysterical but is anyone else scared by the fact that ISIS seem to be heading towards the Iranian border?

I've actually been adding up numbers of posts on Syria (as an example of something else in the Middle East that got a lot of media attention) and Israel, because I have no life I was interested in the numbers:

Posts on threads with 'Syria' in the title (only ones related to conflict, not travel etc, and with no restriction on when they were posted): 1,011

Posts on threads with 'Israel'/'Palestine'/'Gaza' in the title (only related to Israel-Palestine, not other Israeli conflicts): 10,686

The Syrian civil war has only been going on for a few years whereas some of the Israel posts go back to 2006, so that presumably accounts for some of the discrepancy. But taking only the posts about Israel from threads started in July onwards, there are more than 6,100 - over six times more than all the posts on the Syrian conflict combined.

Admittedly, it's quite a crude measure - there might be threads about the civil war that don't actually have 'Syria' in the title, for example, and it's not like there wasn't any interest in Syria at all. But I don't think it can be argued that it's just because Gaza is in the news at the moment, because the Syria count comes from all threads, both when Syria was in the news and when it wasn't. There is certainly more debate around the Israel issues than others, for whatever reason.

Wannabe I wouldn't go for full-on scared yet, but wary, definitely.

Wannabe not too much, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards would take care of ISIS pretty well I think. There are already senior Rev Guards in Baghdad to help organise the capital's defence.

I'm a bit more hysterical about ISIS taking the Mosul dam and advancing on Kurdistan, but it looks like the US and Turkey are going to get more heavily involved there.

Also it looks like the Armenia-Azerbaijan war might reignite -- not exact same neighbourhood but close enough to add more volatility to the region (and the energy supplies)

Interesting quantitative analysis Aswad!

I do agree with Surely that it's a matter of perception as well, but that is a pretty healthy discrepancy.

Thank you for the grip it was well needed (I keep getting ww3 paranoia)

Thanks for the link crescentmoon it's fascinating/worrying

Well done on getting numbers, alAswad.

I'm not sure they're telling quite the story you think, though. According to that, 60% of posts about Israel/Gaza/Palestine on MN since 2006 are since July this year.

So it looks like the majority are because of recent events in Gaza.

But you're certainly correct (on those figures) to say that there's more dbate around Israel/Gaza issues recently than around others.

Your OP was to ask why.

One factor will be that debate and disagreement will produce more posts than agreement. I've by no means read all the threads, but a lot of the Syria ones have been an undisputed "OMFG this is all awful."

That's likely to absorb quite a lot of your figures, but may still leave other discrepancies to account for. So you may still have some room to look for Israel/Gaza-specific explanations.

Oh hang on, you weren't saying that there wasn't a peak because of recent events [double negative knot].

Just that there were more posts during the recent Israel/Gaza events than the Syrian civil war.

Sorry, skip my first three sentences, then.

sorry crescent which bit did you want a link for?

No Surely, I think your first point is relevant even if it's not actually addressing what I was saying, because it backs up the point that you and others have made that people aren't necessarily interested in the plight of the Gazans until 'big bangs' as you put it make the news. I'm just interested to get to the bottom of why, when it is in the news, there seems to be more debate/interest around one issue than the other.

The numbers don't tell the whole story anyway as there'll always be a lot of people (like me) who take a great deal of interest in the politics but read the threads without posting - it's possible that there are more people like that on the Syria threads than the Gaza ones because more people feel like they understand enough about what's going on in Gaza to have an opinion.

babybarrister you make a very good point in your second paragraph, I hadn't considered that at all (even though it seems really obvious now you point it out!) but it makes a lot of sense.

crescent Ah sure thing. Well people aren't sure whether there are serious intentions for war or just attempts to intimidate/gain concessions, but there have been clashes and fatalities in recent weeks, and yesterday the president of Azerbaijan made some very bombastic threats that freaked people out a bit:

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/azerbaijan-president-threatens-war-armenia-twitter

This is a nice long analysis piece:

www.rferl.org/content/caucasus-report-karabakh-war-dance/26521123.html

This is a collection of info sites on the conflict:

www.cfr.org/global/global-conflict-tracker/p32137#!/?marker=23

The conflict is generally over the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, which they fought a war over in the early 90s and has never been properly resolved. But there are energy and water issues tied up in it.

I do think it can be tricky to separate out water/energy issues as the prime driver of conflicts, as they are usually coexisting with other territorial factors, but it is important to look at their role, definitely.

Thanks for starting this thread alAswad. It's very interesting and I have enjoyed your posts on this and other related threads.

I probably haven't got much to add that's not been said already. I would guess Israel gets more attention because it was created under UN mandate, the West felt guilty after the Holocaust, it receives a lot of US financial support and it is perceived as a Western country that is the only outpost of democracy in the Middle East. It also seems to be the only country whose right to exist is questioned.

There are also a huge number of English-language books on the conflict and its history. Many Jewish people or people with Jewish ancestry around the world would be entitled to emigrate to Israel should they so wish and therefore take an interest in it; I remember some years ago reading a letter to the Guardian from prominent British Jews renouncing their right to live in Israel due to its treatment of the Palestinians. It is relatively easy for journalists, tourists and activists to travel to Israel and the occupied territories.

Perhaps atrocities in other countries tend to receive less attention as they are perceived as being part of a crazy violent world and there is not much we can do about them. Some of this may be due to Islamophobia.

I also think that little attention is paid to the plight of Palestinians in other countries, such as Syria and Lebanon. Why, after 66 years, are Palestinians and their descendants living in refugee camps and barred from many professions? Surely compassion for the Palestinians should not stop at the borders of Israel and the occupied territories.

On a personal level, I am interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as I have some relatives in Israel, although I don't have much contact with them, and I have been there several times, albeit only for holidays. Having said that, during all my visits to Israel as a child my awareness of the plight of the Palestinians was not brilliant; I only began to read widely after the second intifada. I am surprised at the posters who think that Israel/Palestine has only been in the news recently; unless they are very young have they been hiding under a stone? It's in the news on and off but rarely out of it for long. There's probably more awareness due to social media now, but Twitter and Facebook have been around for a while.