To not understand how some people afford to have so many children?

[KiKiFrance]

I mean this as a genuine question, but how the heck do they do it?

We have 3 DCs as that was all we could afford, yet I know families that have only one very average income that just seem to keep having children, and affording nice things, activities and holidays too.

Someone I know has just had her fifth baby. They are very early thirties and her DH works in a supermarket, and she is a SAHM, so obviously not on a high income, yet they always have nice clothes, the older children to lots of activities, they have a lovely new build house which is decorated beautifully, always eat out, and they bought all new (expensive) baby equipment for baby #5. She has also said to me that they'll have a sixth baby at some point, and possibly a seventh too!

The other person that I know has 4 children. Her DH is a chef but is always in and out of work, but again they seem to have such nice things, and her children to lots of activities and clubs. One of her sons has just had a huge birthday disco in a hall, and she said it cost over £300. They too are planning to have more children.

Our income is good, yet we generally can't afford half the things that they can, and certainly could never have afforded a 4th child, even though I would have quite liked another baby.

Dia

I have just read your pony post.

Not sure if this helps but my friend got very cheap almost free lessons, but she had to take her dd to help clean and muck outfor the day.
It was the only way she could get lessons but it seems to be working for them. Not sure if you have the time to hang around or time for your ds to spend a full day there, but thought itworth a mention.

I agree that teens are not more expensive than toddlers if you have to pay for childcare. The cheapest age is when they are at primary school.

that's a good idea morethan. thanks for that. they had a 'treat' day yesterday at a local stables. and of course came home insisting they really want lessons but they are £14 each so I have said no for the time being. however if it's possible to trade time for a lesson we might be able to do that. I will contact the stables and ask.

I really do think it depends on your outlook and preferences tbh.

We are better off now than we were when ds1 and 2 were primary age and dd perhaps gets more than they did. However, the basic necessities are still the same, food, shelter, heat etc although these have increased over the years as they do.
When she is a teen the situation will be the same, we will have a higher disposable income than we did for the ds.
If I buy her more stuff itsecause we have the money not that she ismore expensive.
Phones, other gadgets, designer labels, trip out, entertainment, lessons, tuition isn't necessary and hings yo do if you have the money.
This doesn't make teenagers more expensive, you just decide to spend more.

Chunderella the tax creds I received was more than my full time wage

Don't get me wrong I'm grateful. But it's a hard trap to get out of once you have got yourself into it.

The wage basically replaced my housing benefit as my rent was higher than the maximum amount so I had to find an extra hundred even when not working. So I got to slog my guts out in a sales job on my feet for ten hours in exchange for minimum wage to pay my rent with and still be in the same position as not working. Plus I lost free school meals which cost eighty pound a month and had to find extra for childcare.

I carried on regardless I was so determined to work and subsequently ended up having a breakdown for a lot of reasons including the fact I was plain worn out. And no better off.

However I'm about to do it all over again. Interview tomorrow for a full time job. Once again all benefits will go into the air whilst they decide what I am entitled to and I will have to wait to see if there are overpayments during that time and will have no real idea of my financial situation for a couple of months just in time for Christmas.

Why am I doing it. Because I want to work. I have a good brain and get very down when not doing anything. I was also brought up to pay your own way and with the way things are these days relying on benefits alone is not good. If there is independence for Scotland there will be changes over a couple of years. If we stay with Britain and Tories income support will stop for me next year with my youngest now being school age. Plus I want to set an example to my children. For all I know I am making a mistake and may be posting on MN about how utterly deflating it is to keep trying to work full time and not getting anywhere.

It doesn't surprise me that people in so called "ordinary" jobs are able to have nice lifestyles and perhaps more children. What looks like an ordinary job could be a specialized trade.

DH and I are both lawyers which is seen as a prestigious, well paid profession, and we are lucky to both earn decent money. However we both spent 5 years studying, I graduated with £35k student debt (he didn't as his parents paid for him), we spent our 20s working our way up our careers, with salary improving but initially on quite low pay, bought a house when I was 28 and he was 32 and only now are expecting our first child (I'll be 33 when it arrives).

Compare us to friends we have who are builders or sparkies - they left school at 16, did a paid apprenticeship and never had student debt, often bought their first home in early 20s - so bought for much less and had loads more capital gain, settled earlier so loads more fertile years to have more kids if that's what they wanted - oh and can renovate their houses themselves or pay mate's rates rather tham paying top dollar which is what impractical DH and I did! And yet I bet people would assume two lawyers would be better off than a tradie. (I'm not whinging btw, just pointing out how appearances can be deceiving. )

Great post Nac.

I have a similar situation. I am getting a pay rise soon but I am happy only because I can say I'm worth a bit more . My actual income will go down once the benefits are all reduced. And that will be after they get it wrong for the first few months and make me pay it back as well as everything else.

Its always better to be working nac so dont get disheartened. I felt like you a few years back but Ive worked all the way through all my children and have now had the opportunity of my dreams come up to start next month. If I hadnt of worked I wouldnt of achieved anything or be going anywhere. It feels good as well when you workhard for something and I finally comes true.

can yo do your own conveyancing though Nac

you make a valid point though

Melissa absolutely and this job I will hopefully get tomorrow does have the opportunity to work your way up. I suppose one of the benefits in having had all my children young is having no need to take maternity etc.

My dream job I just cannot afford the cost of the courses. Nor can I presume that at the end of it there will be a steady income. I got accepted on the course and am due to start in the beginning of September but have made the hard decision to go to work perhaps be able to save up which I can't do now and take the course through open university.

Revealall congrats on the pay rise I do know what you mean. The minute your income increases everything drops to mean things are still no different. Hey ho.

Just a quick note. I use a phone to post and unfortunately part of the screen doesn't work. That is why my grammar and punctuation may be a bit out!

You don't get school trips and dinners free on a low income!

Working parents will almost always be in eligible for these, even if they get a lot of tax credits.

no, however that wasn't what you were talking about in your post. you said that people renting don't have the fear of losing their home if they lose their job.

But I was clearly talking about it from a financial and govt funding HB point of view, not a landlord suddenly giving notice point of view. If you want to bring extra points in then don't complain when I do the same.

sorry, you've lost me.

you said that people with mortgages had the fear of losing their home due to losing their job and said that renters don't have that fear. this was wrong. they do.

this is your entire post
The HB system really pisses me off too. People who have bought homes always have the fear of losing their home if they lose their job for whatever reason whereas people renting don't have that same fear.
We need greater security for tenants but we also need greater security for people with mortgages.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I was clearly talking about it from a financial and govt funding HB point of view because Govt funding HB would have nothing to do with you losing your job. btw- HB far from covers all the rent on many homes. the tenant has to pay the rest so if they lose their job and, as often happens, benefits don't kick in for weeks/months then they could very easily be homeless as a result. so yes. that fear is very much there the same as for people with mortgages.

Weatherall

My older dc were entitled to free school meals and other benefits when they were younger.
It used to be if you earned underapprox 11k even if you had the tax credits/ Family credit whatever it was called.
It then went up to 16k and still entitled.
Then within dds time at school only if you don't receive tax credits.
here if you are low income you have subsidised music sportor drama lessons provided by the LA, trips re subsidised too, by LA or school.
Maybe other authorities onlydo this for income suport which they do here also.

chunderella

Eldest doesn't really live here anymore, well he does on paper, but we never see him.
I can't afford to see him too much
When they were both at home the food bill was more expensive but quite often they didn't eat at home, which is one bit of respite I suppose.
I can't say as I noticed a huge difference though, but maybe that's due to my shopping routine I mentioned way way way up thread
We have always eaten well, good food, mostly cooked from scratch.
I buy lots of whoops, freeze a lot, live on offers, so have never really spent too much on food.
Any left overs are frozen and its a cheap meal for one sometime.

Oh no, SweetSummerSweetPea I do not by any stretch of imagination think I am poor and beer tastes on a champagne budget has definitely resulted in a good outcome.

But I do wonder how it is done, we have a 'nice' life, a nice house, in a nice neighbourhood, solid reliable car and so on it is all excellent and we are certainly not living to our means (by that I mean we are way under).

I do just occasionally wonder how people afford the lavish lifestyles so many of them appear to live, knowing that we make towards the top incomes and we can't 'afford' to, well not for any length of time anyway.

It crosses my mind because I worry that people are living in houses of cards and if most people crash, everyone is going down with them.

We have just let go of the idea of a third child because we don't feel we have the 'resources' for 3 instead of 2 (not just cash obviously) so I do wonder how people with 4+ keep it all together.

JackShit - Check out the documentary 'Don't Panic – The Truth About Population' presented by Hans Rosling. It's really interesting and you may find it reassuring.

morloth we are similar I think.

we live in a nice 3 bed house in a gentrifying but not super posh area (not UK but akin to London prices), 2 cars (both in good nick but 8 - 10 years old now), we holiday overseas once a year if we can manage it and locally in summer at a beach house - nothing fancy.

We manage to save a decent amount and try to pay down our mortgage faster than the minimum but we certainly don't live the high life - we don't wear designer labels or ever buy flash gadgets! And this is on two very good salaries. I am just having our first child so I don't know how many we'll have, but 3 max, more likely 2 - I grew up in a family where we struggled financially and I don't want to put my kids (or me!!) through that.

I see people living in very flash houses, much fancier cars, designer goodies, one SAHP etc etc and wonder how they manage it. I'm not envious, it's just genuinely a mystery to me. (These are people that I know, or know of, personally I mean, no slebs in magazines). Perhaps there's family money there, or maybe it's all on credit or extending the mortgage - the former would be fab but I would find the latter incredibly stressful.

The answer to the original question posted is the same as that asked of 'how do people afford private school\house\car\holiday when they earn similar to me ?' Wealth is rarely dependent solely on wages. Some have no debts, savings, inheritance, wealthy relatives or got lucky in property. Lifestyles are not always funded by credit cards. Obviously some are, but not all.
I know of neighbour's who are both on a teachers salary, they have 2 dc. We live in a very 'desirable' part of London and they send both dds to private school. Not feasible on their salaries alone. However, I know that the wife inherited 2 houses from her mother.

I don't quite understand how the OP has such a hard time understanding that perhaps others could be in a different situation to herself. From what the OP has told us about her friend, she sounds like she is taking good care of her children. I honestly think the OP wanted to ask why this friend earns the same as herself but manages to have much nicer things. The 4 dc is a moot point. A touch of the green eyed monster I think.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I was clearly talking about it from a financial and govt funding HB point of view because Govt funding HB would have nothing to do with you losing your job.

Because if you lose your job and have a mortgage you don't get any help with the mortgage for the first 3 months and then you get an amount which covers only part of the interest for the next 9 months and then you get nothing. If you lose your job and rent a home you get HB from day one and it continues whilst you look for work regardless of how long you are out of work. Even if there is a shortfall due to LHA or benefit cap the help is much more significant for tenants than it is for mortgage payers.
It is daft because tenants might live in houses that have mortgages too (BTL)and so the govt is happy to pay landlords mortgages but not owner occupier mortgages.
Do you get my point now?

If you lose your job and rent a home you get HB from day one

No you dont. There is a minimum of 6 weeks here before you will get any payment through. Many people are waiting longer than 6 weeks. In NI (where i am) LL only have to give 28 days notice. You could be homeless by the time the money arrives. With a mortgage you wont have your home reposessed for missing one or two month's payment. My friend started defaulting on her mortgage over two years ago. She hasnt paid anything on it since last september, she has been to court and had the order of repossession. She still has the house.

It still remains the case that HB is far more generous and less time restrictive than help with mortgage payments. Your friends case is not necessarily the norm and if she got repossessed and the sale price of her home is less than her outstanding mortgage she would still owe the shortfall plus legal costs.

yes, HB may be more generous but, again, that wasnt the point you initially made and it wasnt what i was responding to. You said people renting dont have the fear if losing their homes if they lose their job. They very much do. I have demonstrated (a few times now) why.