to expect a catholic primary school for my catholic children?

[Mixedupmind]

No idea where to put this so I've put it here
We are moving to west sussex in a few months time, just in time for reception applications
Now there is only one catholic primary in the borough where we are moving to, compared to 3 where we currently are ( London )
Am I being unrealistic to think we will get the school place?
My sister in law today has made it very clear she thinks we are!
There are 2 intakes for each year so 60 children, we will live 0.4 miles away from it and are practising Catholics.
We want this primary as much as we want the catholic secondary college so it's important we get the primary as its a feeder school.
If for some reason it becomes over subscribed could we appeal for religious reasons?
And would this mean we may get offered a catholic school in a different borough miles away?

fwiw I don't think schools need to be religious at all but in a town where all my other options are CofE then yes, as a Catholic I feel I should have more right to Catholic school for my children as I do not want them to be at a CofE school (I would however have accepted a non-religious school, if there were any near me) as it is I have had to pay for DD to go to a private school because that was the only way to keep my Catholic daughter from being force fed CofE teachings at school. My point is all the time we have prayers of any sort in state schools there has to be denominational schools because it is just as wrong to force a different religion on religious children as it is to force any religion on atheist children.

As a side note I get really annoyed with people like fraidy who are prepared to lie and steal priority from children who might otherwise have got in. (not a dig at you OP, moving into a new parish is a completely different thing). I can name at least 6 families who got in above DD who have not attended church since their eldest was offered a place, I have done fundraising, helped re-decorate, replanted the gardens and even wash the cassocks and cottas they use for school masses, even long before I had children and have attended mass every sunday and holy day of obligation since I was born, as have my DC, yet because some people think its ok to come to mass for a few months and pretend to be religious to get into the outstanding school DD missed out on a place.

All school set criteria, including religious. If you meet them, whether that's through church attendance, baptism etc, the admission authority must judge by those rules. It has no right to judge by something outside those rules ie what is I'm your head or how you may or may not behave down the line.

Surely you can see that?

If you want more subjective rules, then it cannot be within the state system.

I can see that, I just think it's wrong of people to lie about their religious beliefs and play the system, I mean how is attending church just long enough to get your DC in any different to renting right next door to the school for few months to cheat the system?

The latter is usually against the rules: if the primary home hasn't been given up, and, if caught, the place can be withdrawn. So yes, the rules cover that scenario.

hm maybe, but morally I don't see a difference, just a difference in how easy it is to prove/deal with. I know the school can't do anything about it as they have to stick to admissions criteria, that's why its the parents that think its ok that I'm annoyed with, not the school.

I'd love to know what aspects of a community non-religious school are actually contrary to the beliefs of catholics or C of Es. I'd also like to be able to appeal to get my offspring into school where no religion is taught. Imagine if from the age of 5 you spent that RE time and collective worship time on learning a language, or computer programming instead.

Wangling your way into that school for the reasons you've described feels a bit contrary to your beliefs anyway.

It's not a difference in how easy it us to prove. Stopping attending church after receiving a school place simply doesn't breach any admissions rules.

The only thing any legal system can do is set the rules. I might not steal because I'm afraid of punishment; you might not steal because you think it's wrong. As long as neither of us steals, the law has no business in our motivations.

The parents who do pretend I'm sure would prefer not to but they consider following the state's rules to give them the best chance of a good school place is worth the extra hassle, just as many families consider moving house permanently primarily to a good location for schools a year or two before their eldest is due to start

Rafa: you are right about the grounds for appeal at reception - it should be almost impossible to win - and yet an extraordinary thing is that about one in four appeals for primary school places is successful. Something very odd is going on.

But sashh, if you don't believe in the faith and think its damaging to the child and society etc etc, them why would you want your child to attend that school??

I never said I did.

I just think it's wrong of people to lie about their religious beliefs and play the system

No it's wrong that there is a system to play

We want our children to attend a school that reflect my beliefs however there's no point pretending that the school being a good one also comes into play surely

So if the RC school was in special measures and the non faith was outstanding which would you choose?

Suttonmum1: "I'd love to know what aspects of a community non-religious school are actually contrary to the beliefs of catholics or C of Es."

I've often wondered that as well. People often bang on about the "ethos" of faith schools, as if in ordinary community schools the children are all learning how to worship Satan and stick pins in each other.

The main reason for me relying on the catholic primary school is because in the whole area there are only 2 secondary schools, one non faith which has been given special measures to improve and the catholic one which is outstanding.

And this could change in a heartbeat!!!

No it's wrong that there is a system to play well that too, its also wrong that there is such a difference in standards between schools. As I said I'd happily have accepted a non-religious school for DD, I just don't want her at a CofE school.

I hope you get the place OP. I did an in term transfer for my DC's this year & agree that the Primary education topic is really good.

Re my knowledge of Catholic schools, with your church attendance, letter from your priest & baptism of your children you would be in the top category. A problem would only occur if there were 31 plus children who all fell into the same category as you for this admission year (so all the applying children met the same standards). Reception class numbers are tightly controlled which is why primary appeals are so very difficult as the school is unable to agree a place for any child if they are already full to capacity. Also I noticed that in our area, admission forms if you were applying on grounds of faith had to be sent straight to the school, rather than the council so its worth double checking where they need to go in your area.

I'm an atheist & would dismiss a faith school solely for that reason so I have no argument against your wanting a faith school because of your beliefs. I hope you get your place.

I can name at least 6 families who got in above DD who have not attended church since their eldest was offered a place, I have done fundraising, helped re-decorate, replanted the gardens and even wash the cassocks and cottas they use for school masses, even long before I had children and have attended mass every sunday and holy day of obligation since I was born, as have my DC, yet because some people think its ok to come to mass for a few months and pretend to be religious to get into the outstanding school DD missed out on a place.

You dont actually believe that do you?!

Do you really think that they would look at the attendance of these 6 families compared to you and decide to not give her a place? No, sorry, not buying it. Clearly there were other criteria that your DD didnt fit that the other children did, and the fact that you attend church everyday and twice on Sundays will have had no bearing on that at all.

Bogey, it's possible. Church attendance criteria have to be defined and it could be "weekly attendance for six months before application, form signed by church official" for example. If two families meet whatever it is, then additional attendance won't be a tie breaker, it's more likely to be distance.

Thats my point. There will be other criteria that the other kids met better than the PP's DD did. So ok, they both met the "6 months attendance" and then they differed. The PP lost out, tough, it happens. Or should cassock washing be on the criteria list too?!

there are other criteria where they were higher but the other criteria wouldn't have applied had they not have pretended to be catholic for a little while.

I accept that it happens and its tough, that doesn't mean I can't be annoyed by people who openly admit they have been dishonest just to bump their kids up the list though does it?

I am a christian. I refuse to consider sending my children to a faith school because it is entirely against christian teaching. Religious schools are divisive, I doubt that fits with any religions teachings. Jesus welcomed everyone.

My children have attended various schools, and at present dd1 is at a 'failing' school. She's doing fantastically. People continually hassle me about sending my child there, because she is a very vulnerable child, for various reasons. And my ONLY reason for sending her there is that I would not consider the religious school.

I feel strongly about my religion, so I won't go against my beliefs. And yes, the c of e, and catholic schools are both 'outstanding.'

Sorry I misunderstood, Bogey.

Adikia, they didn't pretend to be catholic. They attended church. I have no idea if they vocalised responses in church though. And re baptism - plenty of people are christened/baptised and leave it at that, they do it for reasons of tradition or whatever.

" can't be annoyed by people who openly admit they have been dishonest just to bump their kids up the list though does it?"

I dunno - I'm trying quite hard not to be annoyed that schools with any faith criteria exist, tbh. Do you see that POV?

they attended church for 6 months, that was the requirement and they fulfilled it. It wasnt dishonest at all. It would have been dishonest if they had enrolled a full card carrying catholics when they were atheist, but that wasnt the requirement.

They attended church, so did you. I dont see the issue.

And I'm not thrilled they are giving additional choice to some parents for no good reason at the expense of others. That annoys me more.

I dunno - I'm trying quite hard not to be annoyed that schools with any faith criteria exist, tbh. Do you see that POV?

Yes, and as there aren't enough school places for everyone to get 1st choice then I think non-faith schools would be a better answer as I think most people would rather a school with no faith than a school that's a different faith to their own.

Adikia, when you talk about C of E schools, do you mean any mainstream school that typically has a Christian assembly or do you mean specifically C of E schools?