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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not see why people are so annoyed...?

365 replies

curiousgeorgie · 29/07/2014 23:31

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709730/Richard-Dawkins-sparks-outrage-Twitter-debate-saying-date-rape-bad-stranger-rape-worse.html

Sorry for the daily mail link, I know some don't like that.

I think I agree with him and I don't think it takes anything away from victims.... Am I wrong?

OP posts:
SlicedAndDiced · 31/07/2014 09:08

Thank you Appletini.

You have said in it in a far better way than I managed to.

wheresthelight · 31/07/2014 09:13

As someone who was raped by my boyfriend I think yabvvu and completely niave.

Rape of any sort is awful, a stranger doing it means fear of aanyone you pass in the street but someone you know, trust amd love means you never again feel 100% safe anywhere

Personally I think you and the author of the daily fail articles are idiots

NewtRipley · 31/07/2014 09:14

Booboo

Agree with your last comment

To me it is a bit like a comedian who makes a cruel joke and justifies it by saying nothing is off limits in comedy.

In choosing this for his thought experiment, he actually reveals more about his reall attitude to rape than he means to.

OxfordBags · 31/07/2014 09:17

Phaedra, victims being the ones who can decide on the severity of their experience and the need in some non-victims to diminish the idea of rape in order to make it psychologically comfortable for themselves. I wasn't talking about victims diminishing experiences - although the societal obsession with the latter, as evinced by this thread, sadly, does lead to many victims feeling like they're being ridiculous or melodramatic or something if and when they do feel traumatised, etc.

PecanNut · 31/07/2014 09:28

Applauding Appletini and hoping Richard Dawkins reads your post and realises what an ill-informed wanker he is

wheresthelight · 31/07/2014 09:42

Frontier you are wrong to say that date rape implies an expectation of sex. That alcohol etc was involves and that there must have been some degree of contact priorto the act and thus making it ok.

I had been ccasually dating someone for a few weeks, it was a bit on off as he was older than me, I wasn't long out of a long term relationship and he was fully aware that whilst we went on dates I was not ready for it to be in any way physical. He accepted that or so I thought. Due to a job offer I moves away, he turned up unannounced and uninvited. I allowed him to sleep on the sofa as my best friend was in the spare room. He came into my bedroom whilst I slept and raped me whilst I slept. I woke up and did my best to fight him off but it was impossible as he was physically stronger. I begged for my life, and he carried on. Neither of us was drunk as I don't drink and he had been driving.

You are fueling one of the biggest myths and the reason why I like so many others are unable to speak out in rl about our ordeals. Because by the verynature of the use of the word date there must be some blame to be laid at the victims door.

Imagine if it was you wife, sister, daughter, best friend. Would you be telling them it was ok because they knew the bastard?

I cannot still go near the road he lives in, his parents live in the next street to mine and I cannot walk or drive past their house without feeling terrified that he may be there.

The fear and the violence is the same regardless of whether you knew your attacker or not.

Yes there are degrees of the attack but not within the act itself and to try and argue that one is somehow less awful just makes you an idiot

Appletini · 31/07/2014 10:13

I hid this thread then changed my mind and came back. Glad my post made sense.

I just told DH about what Dawkins said and a look of complete shock and comfusi

Appletini · 31/07/2014 10:14

Hit post too soon.

A look of complete shock and confusion passed over DH's face and then he said: "But none of it is better!"

Well, quite.

MostWicked · 31/07/2014 11:15

The problem with trying to create a hierarchy of rape (apart from the morally obvious), is that every single case is different.
But that is exactly what the courts must do. They start with the standard sentence for rape - irregardless of who committed it, and they then take into consideration the aggravating and mitigating factors that make some rapes worse than others. If you accept that every single case is different, then you must accept that some are worse than others. The differences must have some definitions for a court to be able to judge them.

MostWicked, you might think the examples you've given make a rape 'worse',
I was using some of the examples from the CPS sentencing guidelines, where a sentence would be longer due to the aggravating factors.

Many victims might see things differently. This is where the theorising becomes inane.
But they all have to be judged in court by the same standards. A victim is the only one who can define how the rape has affected them, but a victim who has recovered more quickly with few lasting affects, has not suffered any less a crime than someone who becomes long term depressed.

What is the need people have with wanting to diminish experiences?
By acknowledging that the aggravating factors makes some rapes worse, does not diminish the experiences of people who have been raped. By trying to claim that all rapes are the same, diminishes the experiences of people who have suffered aggravated rape.

When someone has shoved themselves into your vagina without permission, it's really annoying when other people want to pontificate about how traumatised you are allowed to be.
The court judgement is not about how traumatised you are. No-one has defined how traumatised you are allowed to be, but the court DOES have to define and judge, how serious the crime was.

I do not think you should be trying to rank them in that way because it's all so horrifically bad.
Yes, absolutely, ALL rape is horrific. but to suggest that because they are all horrific, they are all the same, is wrong. They are all horrific, but some are more horrific than others.

If your child was killed, would it be worse if they were strangled or hit by a drunk driver? Would you tell a woman who has a still birth that this was less serious than a woman whose child is killed by a car?
The CRIME is worse, not the affect of the event. This is all about judging the crime, not the victim.

People have jumped on this claiming that the victims are being judged, when that is never what was said in the first place. It isn't possible to rank crimes by the affect on their victims, because there is a vast range of suffering within every crime.
This is all about judging the severity of the crime. Some crimes are worse than others, and within every type of crime, there are different levels of severity.

Altinkum · 31/07/2014 11:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

basgetti · 31/07/2014 11:28

How anyone could read Appletini's post and still argue the toss trying to justify a hierachy of rape is beyond me.

It's great to learn that my rape wasn't so bad after all. I needn't have had such a traumatic breakdown, silly me.

Booboostoo · 31/07/2014 11:31

newtRipley that is a really good point. He was posting in his capacity as philosopher and discussing a philosophical argument; we can also assume he's had years of experience of public speaking and teaching so he should have known the impact of his choice of example. I teach a lot of applied ethics and topics like abortion, euthanasia, etc come up really often - as a teacher you very quickly learn that you need to approach these topics with great sensitivity as you never know the past experiences of your students. I don't know the guy personally but he may even have chosen the example on purpose to create controversy, some people fall I love with their own publicity! Maybe this is the equivalent of a Z list celebrity having another breakup/marriage/pregnancy to keep the gossip pages filled with her name.

MostWicked · 31/07/2014 11:41

No there is no levels of rape, rape is rape!. Doesn't matter who with, no rape is more horrendous than another's
So all rapists should receive exactly the same sentence?

It's great to learn that my rape wasn't so bad after all
Nobody has suggested anywhere, that there are any rapes that aren't so bad that you don't need to be too upset over it.

Judge the crime, not the victim.

chocogirl77 · 31/07/2014 11:45

Most wicked is trying to discuss the point of view of the legal system regarding rape. What they don't seem to get is that they are pointing out the flaws of the legal system when it comes to rape conviction and sentencing.
There needs to be a single sentence for all rapists, and then extra time added on for any crimes committed at the same time- for example use of knife is GBH/ attempted murder, gang rape, everyone involved sentenced with rape under joint enterprise, raping a child- extra time for committing child sex crimes.
This way, everyone including judges and juries will understand that all rape is rape whatever the circumstances, if a person believes that what happened to them is an unfortunate sexual experience, they don't need to report it as rape, but that should not take away from people with the same experience who view non consensual sex as rape.
If there was a mandatory sentence for all rapists with no mitigation allowed , this might finally send a message to all the men and women out there who believe that non consensual sex isn't rape because the man seems like a nice person, or it's a woman, or they were both drinking so she doesn't remember most of it.
Sorry for my rant.

Appletini · 31/07/2014 11:48

Okay MostWicked, tell me which kind of rape is worst. Tell me what would be in your hierarchy.

Is it less bad if a stranger rapes you and breaks your jaw, so your jaw is broken but you haven't been betrayed by someone you trust?

Is it less bad if your husband rapes you and strangles you but doesn't break your jaw so your faith in people is shattered but your jaw is still intact?

Is it less bad if you're raped on a first date so you never trust your own judgement ever again but he doesn't break your jaw?

Is it less bad if he breaks your jaw but wears a condom?

Is it less bad if he comes on your face but doesn't hit you?

Is it less bad if he comes in your mouth and breaks your jaw but calls you a taxi afterwards?

Is it less bad if he refuses to wear a condom and spits in your face but you know him so he's not a stranger?

Is it less bad if he kicks you in the ribs but doesn't strangle you?

Is it less bad if it happens in bed?

Is it less bad if you're asleep?

CPS guidelines for the prosecution of rape are not a reliable indication of what is worse.

Knowing someone doesn't make it more bearable. It's pretty fucking aggravating to be raped by someone you know and thought you could trust.

Rape survivors do not make these distinctions. Only people who have the luxury of this being a purely academic discussion actually try to rank different kinds of rape.

It's all bad.
It's all aggravating.
It's all rape.

Sure, it's not all the same. But pontificating about this is like arguing about whether the north or South Pole is colder.

basgetti · 31/07/2014 11:48

So all rapists should receive exactly the same sentence?

Yes for the act of rape. Further sentences can be added for additional factors such as violence used. Maybe then ALL rape would be taken seriously.

justiceofthePeas · 31/07/2014 12:02

Yy booboostoo you articulated brilliantly what I was clumsily trying to get at upthread Smile

If he is going to hide behind the guise of philosphical debate then his approach should be philosophically sound. He is after supposed to be a professional.

mostWicked I get where you are coming from wrt the law. However, he did not say X is worse in eyes of the law. He did not say it was a worse crime. He just said worse. because he is an enormous attention seeking FW
If you looked at comparative sentencing then in the eyes of the law a great deal of things are more serious than rape and sexual assault.

He also did not say the date rape had no aggravating violence. He just left people to assume that because it was date rape there was no violence. The court presumably would ask rather than making such a dangerous and prejudiced assumption.

As someone said upthread it is the simplistic nature of his statement in the face of what is in reality an enormously complex and distressing topic that makes it so offensive.

Whereas I do not find the reasoned and from a societal point of view, necessary, debate on this thread offensive. Quite the opposite.

As is shown by this thread people can and will have a reasoned well thought out debate on this supposedly taboo topic. Considerably more well thought out IMO than Dawkins self publicising smug self promoting pronouncements with their self proclaimed intellectual superiority.

TheGoop · 31/07/2014 12:04

"So all rapists should receive exactly the same sentence?"

what do you propose?

that a father who rapes his daughter get one sentence but a father who rapes his daughter's friend he just met gets a different one?

Theherbofdeath · 31/07/2014 12:31

Basgeti - the court system places a lot of reliance on the judgement of the judges, who have heard the exact details of the crime. They are seen as the best arbiters of how much punishment is appropriate, how dangerous the rapist may be to other women if he gets out soon, etc. With guidelines issued to them.
I agree that judges often get it wrong, sometimes due to personal prejudice / lack of empathy for the victim. But I doubt that putting an exact tariff on every kind of offence would work.
Eg - if a man pushes another man to the ground, that is assault, and if it is his first offence I doubt he would get much more than a ticking off. But what about if the same man pushes a woman to the ground before raping her? Would that slight punishment (in addition to the basic punishment for rape which would be the same in every case) be appropriate there?
And how long in prison should a man get for rape (any rape)? Further up the thread people were actually arguing for a mandatory life sentence. In which case any rape, in any circumstances, would be deemed to be as serious as the most aggravated murder.
If we say that rape is as bad as murder, in all cases, we are getting too close for comfort to how rape is viewed in parts of the middle East, where women are taught that it is better to be killed than to be raped. Leading on in some cases to my daughter has been raped so I should kill her.
NB I certainly believe that some ways of being raped are worse than others, and also that some ways of losing a child (mentioned above) are worse than others. I would a million times rather have a stillbirth than have a child I have known and loved for several years killed by a psychopath. There are some weird arguments on here.

MostWicked · 31/07/2014 13:19

Tell me what would be in your hierarchy.
It isn't MY hierarchy, it's the legal hierarchy.

CPS guidelines for the prosecution of rape are not a reliable indication of what is worse.
They are the legal guidelines that grade crimes in terms of their severity. The worse the crime, the longer the sentence. Judge the crime, not the victim.

basgetti, that is exactly what the guidelines say.

justiceofthePeas He was comparing the crimes and made it clear that all rapes are bad, but some are worse. He was comparing date rape with a violent rape at knifepoint. He then went on to compare a date rape without violence with a date rape with violence.

what do you propose?
that a father who rapes his daughter get one sentence but a father who rapes his daughter's friend he just met gets a different one?
WTF kind of question is that? I agree with the current CPS sentencing guidelines that start with all rape having the same sentence, then the aggravating and mitigating factors are taken into consideration to make the sentence more just.

From the CPS sentencing guidelines:
"The guideline judgment in Millberry and others established the principle that sentencers should adopt the same starting point for 'relationship rape' or 'acquaintance rape' as for 'stranger rape'. "
"While rape will always be a most serious offence, it's gravity will depend very much upon the circumstances of the particular case."
"Where aggravating features have to be taken into account there is no artificial limit beyond which the court cannot go in reflecting those aggravating features."
"Where the parties are cohabiting and the husband insisted upon intercourse against his wife's will but without violence or threats this may reduce sentence. Where the conduct is gross and involves threats or violence the relationship will be of little significance."

All rape is horrific, but some rapes are more horrific than others.
Why is that so hard to accept?

FreudiansSlipper · 31/07/2014 13:22

The reason why being raped is viewed as bad or worse in some countries is not about the rape itself but the women is then seen as unpure, dirty and so on (and of course the blame shall be put on her) and will being shame on the family if she is unmarried she is unlikely to ever be so a burden on her family

OxfordBags · 31/07/2014 14:08

Just because the LAW has created a hierarchy of rape, doesn't mean that there IS one, OR that the Law has got it right, if there is one. There didn't use to be a crime of spousal rape until 1991 (I think that's right) - that doesn't mean that no woman had ever been raped by her husband or partner before, or had been traumatised by it, FFS. The very fact that the law states that there is a rape hierarchy (or, rather, victim hierarchy) shows that it is unfit for purpose.

And who created those laws? The very people who fit the profiles for a) most likely to be a rapist and b) most likely to be misogynists and c) most likely to inculcated into rape myth and victim-blaming thinking.

MostWicked - what do YOU, personally, think about the concept of rape hierarchy. Put aside what the law says, which does not reflect the reality of rape, and other crimes sufficiently, and express yourself, if you would.

Theherbofdeath · 31/07/2014 14:19

I'd be really interested in what posters think the punishment should be for rape. Let's say "rape only" - that is without any aggravating factors such as knife, threats, assault etc. Can you suggest a basic punishment which all rapists would get, which would then be added to for aggravating features or, if you prefer a different system, additional separate offences?

The most extreme view someone's raised with me (a fellow student, male, at college) was that rape in itself should not be illegal / attract any punishment, but that if the rapist eg punched the woman before raping her, he should be charged for the punch only, or if he injured her internally he should be charged for assault relating to that, but nothing if she was not injured. He was being completely serious.

justiceofthePeas · 31/07/2014 14:42

mostwicked where did he mention crime or the law?
In his explanation he also proposed stranger rape is bad, date rape is worse.

I understand the point he claims he was attempting to make. I am still suspecting his motives and criticising his choice of language and example.

and is rape not by definition violence? Can you have a non violent rape? Is the violent nature not spelled out in the term sexual assault.
Yes yes I do understand there can be more or less violence.
I am merely questioning "non-violent" as a term.

The reason surely why rape whilst armed carries a higher tarriff is because carrying and using a knife is itself a serious offence.

Altinkum · 31/07/2014 14:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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