To not see why people are so annoyed...?

[curiousgeorgie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709730/Richard-Dawkins-sparks-outrage-Twitter-debate-saying-date-rape-bad-stranger-rape-worse.html

Sorry for the daily mail link, I know some don't like that.

I think I agree with him and I don't think it takes anything away from victims.... Am I wrong?

What RD said, which I agree with and is supported by the legal definitions, is that it is the aggravating factors that make some rapes worse than others.

It is a fair point about the use of the term grope. It is outdated.

I do think opinions have changed dramatically over recent years. A very close friend was abused at school. It was very recent when he was able to bring his abuser to justice. He did so in conjunction with several school friends. Their charges ranged from the least severe sexual assault, right through to rape. The sexual assault charges were the mildest, but all were dealt with seriously and sensitively by the police and the court. None of the victims expressed any upset that some charges were for a lesser offence. They all dealt with their experiences differently and no one judged anyone else for how they handled theirs.

Offences have to be graded. I just do not accept that there is anything wrong with that. People who have suffered the most serious of offences deserve to have that acknowledged. And that takes nothing away from anyone who has suffered a lesser offence.

No he didn't say that.

He said "Date rape is bad. Stranger rape at knifepoint is worse. If you think that's an endorsement of date rape, go away and learn how to think."

The law does not support that. The law says rape is rape is rape. It is that black and white. I have written it there ^^^.

Do you want to change the law?
Do you think Richard Dawkins wants to change the law, given that you claim to know and understand exactly what he meant, even though you are (presumably) not him.

You have repeatedly claimed that you think "mild" is a poor word to use in relation to sexual offences, and have just used it yourself.

i dont' really understand why you would do that.

Dictionary.com : mild

"adjective, milder, mildest.
1.
amiably gentle or temperate in feeling or behavior toward others.
2.
characterized by or showing such gentleness, as manners or speech:
a mild voice.
3.
not cold, severe, or extreme, as air or weather:
mild breezes.
4.
not sharp, pungent, or strong:
a mild flavor.
5.
not acute or serious, as disease:
a mild case of flu.
6.
gentle or moderate in force or effect:
mild penalties.
7.
soft; pleasant:
mild sunshine." :

The word "mild" has a benevolence attached to it's meaning, doesn't it.

What a shitty choice of word on his part (deliberate presumably).

oxforddictionaries.com

"ADJECTIVE

1Not severe, serious, or harsh:
mild criticism
mild flu-like symptoms
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.1(Of weather) moderately warm, especially less cold than expected:
mild winters
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.2(Of a feeling) not intense or extreme:
she looked at him in mild surprise"

Rape at knifepoint is an aggravating factor which by the legal definition, makes the offence more serious.
He also said 'date rape is bad, date rape at knifepoint is worse'
I posted a link and sections from the CPS sentencing guidelines earlier which explain that all rapes are considered equal as a starting point, then aggravating and mitigating factors are taken into consideration that separate the more serious offences from the less serious - where ALL offences are still serious.

Mild is a comparative term and when using it to describe crimes, the starting point is bad/unacceptable/horrible/serious.

No change in the law is needed. It already recognises that some offences are more serious than others.

Mild is not a term commonly used about crime. Maybe you are thinking of the word minor, which is commonly used in relation to crime.

Y

The link that you posted defines what constitutes rape. It doesn't explore the finer details about what constitutes a more serious offence. The CPS guidelines do go into more detail and they do explain that:
"The seriousness of the violation may depend on a number of factors"
It's not as black and white as you claim.
CPS LINK

You are giving this man a vast amount of leeway.

Why?

You clearly think that he is right and almost everyone on this thread is wrong, presumably on the basis that we are all a bit thick, as he suggests.

You also continually misrepresent the law on rape, despite having it written in black and white.

Why?

What is in it for you? You seen to be on a sort of point scoring mission amongst a bunch of women, many of them rape victims, who are desperately trying to explain why they object to his comments. Why his comments are inappropriate and why they don't hold water.

Do you want the women on the thread to say of yes you're right what happened to me was actually really mild? Is that the aim?

I have said that mild was not a good choice of words but can only be used as a comparative term where the starting point is serious. I never said it was a legal term.

I don't claim anything I am quoting the rape law in the UK.

That apparently is not good enough for you or Dawkins who say those who say rape is rape are stupid, basically.

I have not misrepresented the law, maybe you should read the link I posted that explains that some offences are more serious.

If you have read my posts, you will see that I have never said that rape is mild, but some rapes are more serious than others. I believe it is an insult to anyone who has suffered an extremely violent rape against a very vulnerable victim, to suggest that this is equally as serious as the non-consensual sex that I described I experienced, which by the definition of the law, is rape.

You have however decided to describe the sexual assault of children as mild.

Language is important. Mild is not a comparator. Mild means not very serious, full stop.

It seems you don't like reading dictionary definitions any more than you like reading legal ones.

And please don't tell rape victims how they feel. I have never heard of a victim of a rape with many aggravating circumstances express dismay at the victim of a rape without so many aggravating circumstances expressing distress. Rather, people who have been raped tend to support each other and express sympathy irrespective of the circumstances.

Which is something we see time and again on Mumsnet, the support. Which is why it's so sad when you get someone insisting there is a hierarchy, person a deserves to be much more upset than person b, actually person b shouldn't be upset at all as it was mild etc.

And of course these attitudes go through to the public and police. Not being believed, told it's no big deal, police turning people away and no criming their complaints etc. There are huge cultural problems with this stuff and throwing minimising terms like mild and date rape around only make it worse.

Of course Dawkins isn't stupid, I can only assume he knew what he was doing.

Which is something we see time and again on Mumsnet, the support. Which is why it's so sad when you get someone insisting there is a hierarchy, person a deserves to be much more upset than person b, actually person b shouldn't be upset at all as it was mild etc.

And of course these attitudes go through to the public and police. Not being believed, told it's no big deal, police turning people away and no criming their complaints etc. There are huge cultural problems with this stuff and throwing minimising terms like mild and date rape around only make it worse.

Of course Dawkins isn't stupid, I can only assume he knew what he was doing.

Read my posts again. I have said repeatedly that mild can only be used as a comparator when the starting point is serious.

I have not described the sexual assault of children as mild, I described a series of charges brought against a paedophile from the mildest/least serious to the most serious and they were all treated seriously by the police and the court.

Yes victims sometimes support each other, that is what I described in the case against their teacher that my friend went through, but they acknowledged that some of them had suffered more serious offences than others.

I actually do agree that there are varying degrees of horrendous level offences.

I've been sexually assaulted twice. Once by a little kid of 13 (I was about 20) as I walked past him on the street and once on a packed tube. Both experiences were awful but happened years ago and don't really count to me. Other people may have experienced the same thing and find their life blighted.

Any offence be it rape or paedophilia are abhorrent and wrong and there are varying degrees of both. I've known people who have been naked in bed, ready to roll so to speak then have decided no. The bloke has proceeded for a few seconds than stopped. His behaviour is completely,100% wrong because the woman said no. But the women have then passed out for the night side by side even though this has happened and they have later complained and cried rape...only to end up in bed with them a few months later.

It is simply not comparable to being raped at knife point, punched, strangled, violently assaulted.

There is a country fucking mile between the rape of a minor and a passing grope. Both acts of paedophilia. I'm pretty sure I was in the grips of a paedo when I was about 7. 'All' he did was kiss me but I knew intrinsically it was wrong. God forbid anything else had happened. That would have impacted and shaped my life.

I've known friends who have been burgled. 1 person took 2 days to discover their things were missing. My other friend came home to their home absolutely trashed and destroyed. Both dealt with the crimes very differently. Needless to say the latter was utterly traumatised, whilst the first were not, albeit pretty pissed off. But the bottom line is they had both been burgled.

In conclusion (I appreciate this is an essay), I believe any assault is completely wrong. Rape is rape. The ongoing impact and effect, however, can be very different dependent on the circumstances.

it's so sad when you get someone insisting there is a hierarchy, person a deserves to be much more upset than person b, actually person b shouldn't be upset at all as it was mild etc.

Again, I've said it repeatedly, Judge the crime, not the victim.
If someone suffers more lasting effects than another person, it doesn't make the crime worse.
If someone suffers minimal lasting effects, it doesn't make the crime any less.

There is no wrong or right in how people feel and experience things. I am not judging how people feel about their experiences, just acknowledging that some rapes are more serious than others.

The impact is not dependant on the circumstances though because that is not how humans are we are all very different and process experiences good and bad differently

And that is why once again we just need to believe not compare and contrast there is no benefit from this

but by doing so less victims will come forward and we take a step back from accepting a victims word. Making a complaint a few years ago the man you have been on a few dates with and ended up in bed with would not accept no for an answer, it's unlikely to have gone to court because it was not a bad rape or some would have questioned was it rape at all. Thankfully this has changed but seems many do not want to see change

People want to be listened to and accepted not judged or compare who suffered the most as we have to deal with what we have experienced

The phrase date rape is used in an attempt to minimise the severity of the attack.

MostWicked, I read your posts and thought you sounded very defensive and disconnected. I wondered what you might be defending against. Now I know. I'm sorry about what happened to you, but there is an obvious attempt being made to distance yourself, and I don't think you're being suitably objective here.

Rape is rape end of argument.... Doesn't matter who has done it although mentally it must be worse by someone you know and trust. It's still rape and there are no different levels to it.....

I only got to pg5 before I had to comment, apologies to anyone in later pages who made this point.

Why are people saying that in stranger rape with knife you would fear for your life but if it was your husband you wouldn't have that fear?

I was date raped. I struggled, he had to hold me. In that moment before penetration - that awful moment of total and absolute loss of trust, and fear - I DID NOT retain some element of trust along that lines of 'it's alright, I know he won't kill me' !! I was terrified, we were in a bedroom, there were plenty of blunt instruments (lamp etc) for him to pick up and use to help subdue me OF COURSE I FEARED FOR MY SAFETY AS WELL AS FEARED BEING RAPED. please stop saying there isn't the same level of fear!!

Date rape is more likely to happen inside. He doesn't have to carry a knife, he knows he'll be somewhere where plenty of potential weapons will be around to assist the violence if he so wishes. So the whole 'at least he wasn't armed' thing is naive and ridiculous to me.