To think that this is unacceptable behaviour in the workplace?

[elizaCBR]

I'm a civil servant working in a small team. For context, I'm in my mid-twenties and am the most junior person, then there are a few more mid-level staff (also female) and our manager (male).

This manager has good points - for example, I think he tries to be nice, and he's supportive of our career progression. However, he also says things that make me uncomfortable given that a) we are in a supposedly professional environment, and b) he is older and more senior than me, which limits how I feel I can respond.

For example, he's talked about women in another area of our agency being "barely dressed" and he's referred to another woman (his ex-boss and her EA) in the agency as a "f*ing bitch" and a "stupid cow" respectively. We came out of a meeting today with another area in our agency (let's call it GLS), and he made fun of its acronym, calling it the "Gay and Lesbian Section". I was a bit dumbfounded and said "um, is that what you call it?". He reckoned it was funny because "you know X (one of the senior women there) is gay".

The last two incidents happened when it was just him and me, which made it even more awkward. I also don't recall him speaking this way about male staff - he'd be more likely to call someone "functionally illiterate", rather than a "d*head", for example.

Just not sure how to handle this - am I overreacting? And if not, any suggestions for clever comebacks which might make him realise this is not on?

Would appreciate wise MNers' view, thanks in advance.

Speak to HR

You don't need "clever comebacks." You need to speak to HR.

From another civil servant, speak to HR and your union rep if you have one, this is not acceptable behaviour.

Although suggesting you speak to HR is definitely one option, in practice complaining about a more senior manager isn't always easy, it takes guts. And I would always express my discomfort to someone directly first- to express my discomfort with their attitude, and give them a chance to change their behaviour without bringing in a third party straight away. I'd leave that as my ace card in case behaviour doesn't improve.

When he says something, next time I would say 'that's not appropriate to talk about X like that' or 'that's inappropriate please don't say things like that in my company'. See how he reacts. He may be v embarrassed & stop.

Totally unacceptable for any workplace. Civil service has specific policies to protect you against this. Ask your line manager to intervene. If he is your line manager then ask for a meeting with him, preferably directly after the next time. If you don't feel brave enough, send an email. HR and/or your union rep will be interested.

This manager has good points - for example, I think he tries to be nice, and he's supportive of our career progression

No evidence of his being nice and supportive in the rest of your post.

I'm not in the public sector but he'd be being warned about his behaviour in my office. Calling a colleague a fucking bitch would be a last warning offence.

Please don't ever become a chef..............

Thanks all. I know going to HR is an option, but I was hoping it could be nipped in the bud by speaking to him first, for the reasons in DirtyDancing's post. Appreciate the suggestions.

PhaedraIsMyName, sorry for the lack of examples - I didn't want to make this a huge essay! For example, he's pushing to restructure our team to promote me, for example, he has our back when there's pushback from other agencies and he's normally quite friendly.

CrazySexyCool123... helpful

(In case anyone is in a similar situation and stumbles upon this post later, I found some helpful suggestions on how to confront offensive coworkers here.)

OP, his behaviour isn't acceptable. It might be standard practice according to one poster to swear at employees but it isn't in the Civil Service or my industry. The Civil Service like my industry has a code of values on diversity and equality. Yes some of it might seem a bit OTT/holier than thou but it's there for a reason.

This bloke clearly hasn't read it in a while.

As you're a civil servant there will be a dignity at work policy which the manager is clearly in breach of, your union rep will be able to help.

It doesn't sound like acceptable behaviour for your area of work.

I'd also say that the first thing of calling someone a fucking bitch or just general comments like that are not something I would consider an issue. From my experience you'd be lucky to find a workplace without this sort of thing, but then I've not ever been a civil servant. Those kinds of jobs seem to have a higher level of sensitivity.

However making comments about someone's sexuality is discriminatory and needs to be addressed.

Eliza this is totally unacceptable behaviour. It should be for all workplaces. If I was your line/ countersigning manager I would intervene on your behalf. If I was in a meeting and this happened, I would nip it in the bud.

You are in am awful position. I hope you can sort it. Your manager would be sacked for gross misconduct in many of the departments I have worked for.

How can he just promote you? There is a rigid procedure must adhere to so that there is a fair and open competition. A LM deciding to promote someone isn't within their delegated authority.

Don't speak to HR. This is life. Not everyone has swallowed the book of good conduct and behaviour. You need to consider how this will affect you and what you expect the outcome to be. He is a senior manager. You are a junior. You are more easily replaced.

Perhaps due to the industry I am in but this stuff is just background noise. You need to pick your batlles when thinking of going to hr. I am sure many will disagree but I would come up with a few choice put downs instead. Normally a whole lot more effective for these types.

"He's pushing.....to promote me"

I agree with marceline it doesn't work like that in the Civil service depts that I know.

I've no idea what a "professional" environment is these days - public opinion straw polls seem to suggest we're split right down the middle as to whether swearing is or is not acceptable in the workplace and swearing can sometimes be part of the camaderie of a place and draw people together (University of East Anglia research). That said, if anything he says - whether swearing or not - makes you uncomfortable, that clearly can't be right.

PhaedraIsMyName
"OP, his behaviour isn't acceptable. It might be standard practice according to one poster to swear at employees but it isn't in the Civil Service or my industry."

It doesn't seem to me, from reading the OP, that he is swearing at anyone - but "merely" referring to someone like that when they are not present, instead referring to this person in the presence of other people (including you). I put "merely" in quotes as of course it's isn't merely as it is affecting you negatively. It does nonetheless appear to be standard behaviour in this society to swear, including referring to others by swearing names that the person would never have used to the face of the person referred to - as well as standard practice to gossip about others when they are not present and, generally, to behave in a two-faced manner. We all love to gossip - about everyone, as soon as they have left the room. When they return, we are all nice as pie. It's so two-faced and hypocritical - but it is standard behaviour, just like lying is standard practice in this society (and anyone who denies that is themselves either lying or is wilfully blind to it).

I would not get HR involved. HR is a theoretical route but, sadly, it is not a practical one as complaining about others always risks making things worse, especially if the culprit is in a higher position than you.

It seems to me he is - or may be - 'just' using swearing as part of normal workplace behaviour (that is outside a customer-facing context) and is unaware of its impact on you. He may have no idea that you find it wrong or that it is making you uncomfortable.

I'd be inclined to assume an innocent motive first off. Rather than jumping in with HR. I'd speak to the guy, probably alone but in a safe room, or if you can't, I'd leave him a carefully written note. If he continues after you have told him that it makes you uncomfortable, then that would be a different matter. I'm not even sure you can say this is definitely against dignity at work if he is unaware. (Besides, when 'dignity at work' policies have been circulated, I've found their quotation of offensive language - particularly the more offensive disability language whilst they simultaneously asterisk the 'inoffensive' swearing - to have caused me discomfort and therefore breach my dignity - so the dignity at work policy writers in breach of dignity at work.)

With the language you've mentioned, I'd actually find the word "bitch", which you've fully written, to be more offensive than the word before it which you've asterisked.

It may also well be your strong view that you are in a "professional environment", and what you consider to be acceptable and not for that, that is helping to be the reason why you are caused offence. This is not seeking to excuse him, instead to say that in my experience the only person that comes out badly from offence is the person offended and it never affects the offender. The good people are always the ones that suffer whilst those who do not, or cannot, care live their lives free of bother and offence.

Perhaps it is more offensive to refer to someone as "functionally illiterate" than it is to call them a "dickhead".

I'm not a wise MNer - I don't think educational qualifications necessarily equate to 'wiseness' - and, as to whether you are overreacting, I don't know - it does seem rather normal language to me, and yes language of the sort that happens in civil service environments, but, if I had a problem, it would be about referring to other people as 'bitches' (certainly man about a woman etc.). I'd be inclined to assume he's not aware of how it is impacting you and either speak to him about it or, if you don't feel able to do that, speak to a trusted close colleague who perhaps can raise it with him - or you and your colleague together with him. Getting HR risks causing him to feel resentment and the relationship between you and him to be damaged beyond repair: which, sadly, will more likely I feel then lead to you being moved to a different department rather than anything happening to him. And, in any event, if anything happened to him, discipline-wise, unless he already sees his behaviour as unacceptable, it's likely I feel - I may be wrong - to blame you for causing him to be moved or disciplined.

I'd assume he had good intent - in that he isn't intending to cause you serious offence, or discomfort - and speak to him about it in order to try to ensure a good working relationship between yourselves in order to get on with him not saying this around you if you really cannot deal with it. Maybe you should not have to, I don't know? (I'm just thinking about how the offended person/person that 'lets' it offend them is always, sadly, the worse off.) Maybe I'm being naive about other people - that they would change their behaviour if informed they were causing a problem? (As you mention putdowns, maybe you are thinking you can get your own back - which, if it helps you avoid offence or be able to live with what's he's saying - it's not directed at you, but I understand how even that can cause people to be uncomfortable sometimes - maybe that is a good thing. Although by same you/I probably wouldn't want this to descend into a slanging match between you and him trying to out-do each other.)

There's another aspect - if these people really are bullies, if you make clear to them that you are uncomfortable, it then gives them another weapon for them to use to make you deliberately uncomfortable. There are men like that - immature boys more like! Subject to that consideration, I'd tell him he is making you uncomfortable/discuss how to resolve it with him - if, knowing it makes you uncomfortable (and if you can't find any way to be 'okay' with it (whether or not you should be)), he then continues and makes you uncomfortable, then he has not much leg to stand on.

Hope this helps, along with other people's posts. Good luck.

Privately letting you know that he hates an ex-senior colleague... I don't think a jury would convict on that one, regardless of the strength of the language used. "Barely dressed" is sexist. "Gay and Lesbian Section" is just not on.

He is probably breaking a lot of rules. The challenge is to prove that he is. If he's genuinely mostly supportive as you say and his unprofessional remarks are made only to you in private, then I'd say sit on it, because it's a lot of effort and risk just to take him down a peg on a point of principle and possibly endanger your own career. But if he starts trying to make your life a misery anyway, go ahead and bring the funk.

Marceline and starfishmummy, it's not the UK civil service, so things might be a bit different here. Nonetheless, we do still follow merit-based principles, as I assume you'd have in the UK? The restructuring/promotion would be because we need more staff, but there are no suitable and interested candidates, so I'm doing extra work/work above my pay grade.

Many thanks everyone for the advice. It's good to hear different perspectives.

I've decided if he makes any similar remarks again, I'll try changing the subject to something work-related, or saying something like "we're at work, let's not go there". If there are more incidents after this, I'll raise the matter with a lower-level manager in my team, or with HR.

I think I'll definitely use a pp's suggesting in asking how they would deal with inappropriate comments.

In the UK civil service this would be misconduct IMO. I hope you get this sorted.

The only problem is trying to prove it to HR, it's his word against your.