To encourage my daughter not to turn the other cheek

[Bessiebigpants]

Im at the end of my tether with dd's classmates.There are some real queen bee types in it who rule the playground.Ive spoken nicely to school I've spoken less nicely to school but the bullying continues.I ve always encouraged dd to ignore them,not to engage etc This means that she has become socially isolated,and a bit of a pariah.Today she comes home there's been a ruckus and a group has broken up My daughter is a gentle soul who tried to be nice to one of the girls and had it thrown back in her face with"I don t want to be like you with no friends" the long and short of it is these girls have been chipping away at dd all year with nasty put downs usually starting with "no offence but" Would it be very wrong of me to encourage her to resort with some put downs of her own instead of walking away,she can t be any more isolated.I would love to move schools but this one is just over the road and my other two children are really happy and settled.Shes 10 just going into year six.Opinions please

I doubt very much that put-downs will work tbh. What has a better chance of working is if she feigns utter boredom with the whole thing. Maybe a 'really? you're still doing that?' or similar. No reaction, no incentive to continue. It is seriously hard to do though.

Never too early to learn the head-tilt and "did you mean to be so rude?"

Bessie I could have written your post with the exception that my DD sticks with her group because she is convinced no one else likes her. So she stays with 'the devil she knows'. But they are awful. They aren't even what I'd consider good friends as it's all catty remarks. Like you I've talked to the school and talked to DD. I can't wait until DD moves to secondary as hopefully she'll meet some others and drop these ones!

I was going to ask if she was year 5... seems she is.

I don't know what happens at this age but some girls can become utter cows. Dd had similar at that age.

I think yes - encourage the put downs, as witty as possible and delivered as casually as possible. Bullies shouldn't be able to dish it out without any appropriate response.

If someone is targeting her and criticising her then they are fair game. Tell your dd to look out for any weaknesses or insecurities and go for the jugular.

I believe in kindness but bullies don't deserve to be treated with the respect they deny others.

This is an instance where science trumps religion. The new testament may advocate turning the other cheek, game theory suggests tit-for-tat works better.

Interest in the iterated prisoners' dilemma (IPD) was kindled by Robert Axelrod in his book The Evolution of Cooperation (1984). In it he reports on a tournament he organized of the N step prisoners' dilemma (with N fixed) in which participants have to choose their mutual strategy again and again, and have memory of their previous encounters. Axelrod invited academic colleagues all over the world to devise computer strategies to compete in an IPD tournament. The programs that were entered varied widely in algorithmic complexity, initial hostility, capacity for forgiveness, and so forth.

Axelrod discovered that when these encounters were repeated over a long period of time with many players, each with different strategies, greedy strategies tended to do very poorly in the long run while more altruistic strategies did better, as judged purely by self-interest. He used this to show a possible mechanism for the evolution of altruistic behaviour from mechanisms that are initially purely selfish, by natural selection.

The winning deterministic strategy was tit for tat, which Anatol Rapoport developed and entered into the tournament. It was the simplest of any program entered, containing only four lines of BASIC, and won the contest. The strategy is simply to cooperate on the first iteration of the game; after that, the player does what his or her opponent did on the previous move.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoners.27_dilemma

does she really have no friends at all? if so I would move her schools. it wouldn't matter if her siblings are happy why should she be miserable. if she is truly that isolated within her peer group then witty retorts won't help at this stage it's gone past that poor kid

I would move her like a SHOT even if her siblings continue in that school Why not move her? She's got one year left...try to salvage what's left of her primary education. The school are failing her.

She really does nt have friends I've done the usual sleepovers encouraged friendships etc.Children are happy to come here and play but she is dropped again.She spends break times and lunchtimes helping with younger children in the library etc.I don't think that she is actively disliked she just never clicked with anyone.The trouble is that she is a twin and her sister is in the other class so she can t change classes.I could bring her with me to work and drop her at a school about 30mins from here but secondary school she will need to go to our local school so she will be going in alone she can t do secondary at my town my local secondary is excellent the schools there are barely adequate.Also my son has some Aditional needs which are mild but I've had to really fight to get him help so don t want to change schools it's so difficult to know what to do.

Do the school have a policy of sibling twins not being in the same class, or is this a personal preference?

I'm just wondering if this is the one thing that could have room to manoeuvre, In a tough situation.

Schools policy, they were split in year one.I think if I really insisted they would probably let her but then she would be asked why and I don't want that for her either.Its such a horrible place to be.Im wondering about sending her to her dads to live for a while to give her a bit of a break.Obviously I would hate it but at least she would get a break then maybe she could come back for summer term before going into year seven.

Does her twin not play with her at breaktime?

Couldn't she just say her friends are in the other class? It doesn't need to be an adult level reasoned answer.

I can see that sending to her dads would buy space but wouldn't it just create a whole host of other potential issues?

My sister (not twins, 2 year groups merged) and I were in the same class for a year. We had very separate social groups and didn't play together at breaks.

Teaching kids to turn the other cheek is really just training them to be a doormat. The trick is to teach her to be assertive in a mature way that doesn't put the others down.

Really though, the teacher needs to get involved. Assholes don't stop being assholes of their own accord. They need a foot up the ass. She's going into year 6, talk to the year 6 teacher before school starts, telling him the problem and make it clear you'll be a pain ask him to keep an eye on things.

Seperated playgrounds for that year group so girls can t play together.Ive just this minute sent an email requesting/demanding she is moved to her sisters class.Ive used buzzwords about self esteem and failing a child etc.I think they will move her As I have been a massive PITA getting my son seen by Ed psych.Which incidentally was sooo worth it.I feel better now at least she stands a chance next term now. I'm glad that I had this support I was begining to feel a bit like I was being Ott about the whole thing.

My bullies wanted that sort of reaction from me. It showed them how upset I was.

A confident child can pull it off, but a child spouting out rehearsed lines may not.

I always used to tell mine that they wouldn't even know where they were 10 years from now.
I suppose it depends on whether you want them to have friends at school or at other situations.
I also explained that it isn't always so easy to meet like minded people to be friends and the real friends are those who are always on your side.
if there isn't anyone like that at school they'll probably be others at an activity you do.
It seemed to work and when they relaxed a bit more a couple of friendships materialised.

Good for you. Its tough this parenting lark. I've had to fight to get support for my DC. Its exhausting but you have to have faith that tou know them best.

Do you know who the teacher will be for next year so they can work on a plan for building your DD's self esteem from day 1 and integrating her in the new class?

Any chance you could talk to that classes current teacher and see which friendship groups may have space for one more so you can start work on developing a friendship or two over the summer hols?