to want to abolish private schools' charitable status?

[minifingers]

Which costs the tax payer 100 million squids a year.

Schools justify having charitable status by saying they offer financial help to 'disadvantaged' children.

The 'disadvantaged' children they refer to are actually, almost to a boy/girl, highly intelligent, academically successful children who have outstandingly supportive parents (otherwise they wouldn't be researching bursaries/applying for schools/preparing their children for exams). In other words, not at all disadvantaged. These are the children who generally succeed very highly in the state sector too.

I personally think that tax-payers money should go towards supporting those children who are failing in education, not to those children who are already succeeding. Surely it's more beneficial for the children who are currently failing most severely in the state sector to have tax payers money spent on them, as these are the children who the tax payer ends up supporting through benefits/the prison system.

In addition, 'skimming off' this top layer of very clever children and sending them to be educated separately from other ordinary kids impacts on the learning of all the other children in the state sector - any of us who have done a degree/been in education know what a difference it makes to be in a class where there are a lot of clever/motivated people, how much more enjoyable and productive learning is.

Just to draw a mumsnet analogy - imagine if all the funniest and most interesting posters here were offered their own site - 'mumsnet gold', where they could be funny and interesting all day long and those of us who are not as funny and clever would be excluded. Imagine how much of a loss that would be to everyone here? we could rename the new non-gold site 'netmums2'

So, AIBU?

Take the £100000000 currently given to private schools and give it to state schools with the largest number of underachieving students to spend on supporting their education instead?

Haklyut

So you agree now that not all private school's are tax exempt then? You didn't reply to my post.

You seem very sure they were

www.charitycommission.gov.uk/detailed-guidance/charitable-purposes-and-public-benefit/guidance-on-charitable-purposes/

and these are charitable purposes. Think the one on advancement is being revised.

Oh, advancement of religion is a charitable purpose. I wonder if there is a list of what is accepted as a religion?

"So you agree now that not all private school's are tax exempt then? You didn't reply to my post."

I thought they did- I stand corrected. However,the vast majority do. And the charities commission has no role in determining what their public benefit activity is- that is entirely in the hands of the school. I am sure Dulwich college would point to it's involvement with an academy as a public benefit- when it was any thing but.

Haklyut

I read online yesterday (can't remember which school but will try and re find it...Yawn) that a school schedules all their swimming lessons for their own pupils in one half of the day in order to free up the pool (foe free) to other local state schools.

Independent schools in the UK create and promote a market in education. In countries where education is a state monopoly it is much harder to innovate and move forwards.

Lots of people on here that seem anti-private school simply because they are to poor to afford it themselves :(

Yes, I'd like to abolish their charitable status and in fact abolish them altogether, after our recent experience.

We visited a private school after recommendation from another parent.
Our child is Dyslexic and we receive no support in the state system in Scotland.

The private school we visited had a Dyslexic HT who was v sympathetic to our plight (my H is a manual worker, I am disabled and currently not working, so even the uniform would have been a stretch).

We were offered a place, and an 85% bursary.
We were also told our other child, with no SEN, might be offered a place 'on even better terms' if our first child 'settled' and became part of the school 'family'. We were thrilled beyond measure.

2 days before term started (and after state school had gone back) my dyslexic child's place was withdrawn on the basis of 'anxiety issues' (which I had been clear about at interview). The bursary was also withdrawn, of course, as well as the chance for our daughter.

I discovered that the school had recently been inspected by OSCR, which, among other things, assesses whether public schools are offering 'sufficient' places to disadvantaged children. They had offered a place during the assessment, then withdrawn it afterwards, when OSCR had 'gone'.

Disgusting.

"Lots of people on here that seem anti-private school simply because they are to poor to afford it themselves "

What a bizarre, evidence free statement. And, as it happens, untrue in my case.

seems to me very simple: everyone, whoever their parents are and however much money they have, should have an equal start in life.

So that, to me, means education and healthcare which are free at the point of delivery.

Withdrawing charitable status to those private schools which enjoy it would be a good start.

It is very easy to say that you open your swimming pool to local schools- it is also very easy to do this not very often and under very strict conditions.

This is actually an absolutely ridiculous conversation. Someone says the pool is lent out for free and you will still be skeptical regarding the terms and conditions.

You want facts and figures. You put a figure on how much it costs parents to give up their time to read at the local state school? You say how much it is worth to a community to have a load of older kids mentoring a literacy project that benefits children in the community.

If you don't think these things are beneficial to the community then I give up.

If you don't believe that private school do these things after I have linked school's that do then please prove me wrong by linking to a school that does nothing.

P.S. The Dulwich College academy thing is not the only thing they would say they do for the community. FFS let's just focus on something that didn't work shall we?

"You put a figure on how much it costs parents to give up their time to read at the local state school?"

Is this something that happens a lot? It certainly doesn't happen any of the schools I've been involved with.

The Dulwich College/Academy thing is something I know about personally. It happens to be the only example of private school /community involvement I do know about. Are you saying I shouldn't talk about it because it's a negative thing?

And I don't think parents reading in state schools would actually come under the public benefit umbrella, would it?

Maybe an academy school is not a desirable or equitable use of tax dollars and don't forget it is itself of charitable status.

''a waste of money,[43] selective,[44][45] damaging to the schools and communities around them,[12] forced on parents who do not want them,[36] and a move towards privatisation of education "by the back door".[44]''

quoted from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_%28English_school%29

Interesting about the teaching of 'creationism' in one of the academy schools 'cos of push by the private sector sponsor of that school chain of Academies. Maybe this is the advancement of religion criteria covered.

Can an academy school really be regarded as an ordinary community school any more than an independent school? They get oodles of public money but are also recipients of private/corporate sponsorship. I don't understand them fully. Are they like independent schools, but given support by the state?

No,they are ordinary state schools with financial autonomy. Up to a point.

Sponsoring academies is one to the suggested ways private schools can fulfil their public benefit requirement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_school_%28England%29

Has the creation of maintained state schools as we know them gone now? The LA can only a traditional community school if no free school or Academy is proposed.

'In April 2014, following publication of a leaked document 'Future Academy System: Lord Nash Session', critics claimed that failing Free Schools were being given special fast-track attention by the government to limit potential embarrassment to the Education Secretary Michael Gove. The leaked document stated that the "political ramifications of any more free schools being judged inadequate are very high and speedy intervention is essential."

''Free Schools were introduced by the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition following the 2010 general election making it possible for parents, teachers, charities and businesses to set up their own schools''

This sounds like private schools, but set up with public money. Not just charitable status, but enabled with public money.

Do they take an applicant as long as they live in the catchment area, like a traditional maintained community school.

Haklyut
And I don't think parents reading in state schools would actually come under the public benefit umbrella, would it?

You don't think that a private school parent, pupil or teacher offering their time for free to teach or listen to state school pupil's read is a benefit to the community? Really. I truly give up now.

Any chance of naming a private school receiving charitable status tax exemptions doing nothing for the community?

Haklyut? TOSN?

barbie I am sure you appreciate that naming the three private schools in my town would be a bit out-y? Which I assume is why you didn't name yours?

But yeah: them

Add message | Report | Message poster Territt16 Thu 24-Jul-14 13:29:17
Lots of people on here that seem anti-private school simply because they are to poor to afford it themselves

What are you basing that on?

TOSN

So you know for sure that these three local private schools do nothing for the local community but receive tax breaks?

I have never heard of that

www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/more-news/head-of-30-000-a-year-private-school-defends-charitable-status-following-comments-by-lord-adonis-that-independent-sector-is-not-fulfilling-its-moral-mission-1-4475955

I was just reading that link. It is written by the head of a very expensive private school. He acknowledges the fact that some private schools need to do more to merit their charitable status. He also discusses a few of the things his own school does to merit its charitable status. He also acknowledges the fact that some private schools could benefit from advice from state schools and vice versa.
It probably is a little biased because he is the head of a private school but it seems less biased than many of the posts on here.

Well, all schools with charitable status receive associated tax breaks, don't they? And given that I live in the community, I would think I would have noticed them doing anything for it, wouldn't I, over 18 years?