To wonder if it matters if a mother doesn't bond with her baby, if baby is loved by grandparents etc?

[Acunningruse]

wordy title.

A very good friend of 12 years had her baby a year ago. The baby was not exactly planned, but friend and her DH weren't using contraception as she had previously been told she was unlikely to get pregnant due to health issues. Friend had a difficult pregnancy due to health problems but baby was born fine.

When baby was born friend was very detached from her preferring others to feed, change, deal with baby etc. From the start friend made lots of negative comments about baby how they can't do x,y or z (eg go out, go away for weekends) because of being tied down with baby. Baby was in own room on a different floor from 8 weeks old and sleeps through every night so its not from tiredness IYSWIM?

Friend didn't enjoy maternity leave at all and unfortunately I have now moved away (2.5 hours drive) so I can't see her as often as I would like it's about once a month. Every time we do see her she says she is unhappy and can't wait to go back to work (next month). My friend's mum and dad have baby every Saturday morning, and baby sleeps over every Sunday night and her and her DH also have a week's holiday booked on their own next month. They have also had a few weekends away. I am not judging this at all am just illustrating that my friend does have a lot of time off so it's not like she;s not getting a break.

I have talked to my friend and gently suggested seeing drs or health visitor etc to have a chat about how she is feeling. Last time I raised it she agreed that she needs to do something as she feels very detached for the baby, doesn't miss her when she's not with her. But her DH talked her out of it by saying my friend should wait to see how she is when she returns to work part-time next month.

I am struggling with this as I just feel so sad for my friend- she is not happy at all, so different from the happy and bubbly person she used to be. And so sad for the gorgeous little girl that her mum doesn't get any joy from being with her. I can't stop thinking about it to be honest, I feel helpless though, what can I do other than trying to get her to see dr? But then, if child is well cared for physically, and has doting grandparents, does it really matter if her mum is detached from her? It's completely different from my own experience of motherhood but does that make it wrong?

While I agree people should never go into having dc with anything other than complete conviction, it's always possible to find it much harder than you expected, does anyone really think they were adequately prepared for the onslaught of constant bf, crying, feeling as though you just don't know what to do etc? I'm not sure op's friend isn't doing her best to create the best situation she can for her dd within the problems she's having.

I suppose I mean, a lot of people, myself included, had no real life idea what having a baby meant beforehand. We couldn't be happier now but it's not like the olden days where every woman would have spent a chunk of time caring for various siblings etc.

Well Gen35 if you come on here for a while it can't escape you that having babies is not unmitigated bliss like everything else in life it takes hard work!

Didn't find the wonder that is mumsnet until dd was over 2 though! I wish I had :) it's hard to know before you know though, you just think 'it can't be that bad' etc.

That's very true Gen35, no-one knows how the experience will be until it's actually happening to you!

As others have said, this does matter hugely. Look up John Bowlby's theory of attachment for more - in a nutshell a child needs a secure attachment and if a mother is that detached it causes problems because the child will assume there is something wrong with them, which can be deeply and devastatingly internalised. Your friend's DH is really off the bake as it sounds like some kind of help is needed. And own room on a different floor from just 8 weeks is a bit odd I must say.

I'd wait to see what happens when she goes back to work. Some people aren't cut out to be SAHP at all. I was much happier when I went back to work and looked forward to my time with DD more as a result.

Babies can also be pretty dull and she may begin to appreciate her daughter more as she grows up.

While attachment is important, the primary attachment figure doesn't have to be the mother and children can form multiple attachments.

I think that we now have a tendency to over medicalise the fact that some people find having a baby to be a really crappy time. Having a baby is hard and for some people dull and frustrating and it is a decision with no way back. That doesn't mean they are depressed. That is coupled with the expectation that people will live a standard "nuclear family" lifestyle and not share childcare with extended family - which is a pretty natural thing.

havent read all so sorry if repeating

how very sad for all concerned,it does sound as if your friend is having problems with her feelings towards her child

i do believe that if you choose to spend or others spent alot of time with the baby and not the mother the child will suffer and their relationship will be fractured

i get some people need some space,we all do but this case is more than that,silly dh for saying not to get help,she clearly does

hope she gets some help with her feelings towards dc,otherwise i think the child will suffer imho

As others have said, this does matter hugely. Look up John Bowlby's theory of attachment for more - in a nutshell a child needs a secure attachment and if a mother is that detached it causes problems because the child will assume there is something wrong with them, which can be deeply and devastatingly internalised.

Yes, children need secure attachments and a responsive caregiver in order to develop normally. It happens long before the child can assume there's something wrong with them. Babies need certain feedback from birth in order for their brain to develop normally. They need someone to respond when they cry, smile back at them, talk to them, cuddle them, comfort them when they are distressed and show pleasure in their efforts to communicate. If they don't get that feedback they literally don't make crucial connections and are permanently brain damaged.

If the grandparents and the father are around enough and are caring and responsive, their input may have supported her development sufficiently that she will not grow up with an attachment disorder. It depends how much they have done and how much time they have spent with her.

Clearly, as the child matures, she will become more aware of the lack of responsiveness from her mother compared to others which isn't ideal and will no doubt cause her problems in the future but that's different from the damage caused by the lack of a secure attachment in babyhood.

As Appletini said.

Bowlbys theory is right on.

I have seen this played out for the past 15 yrs in my job.

The trouble is when it happens to you you don't realise ... I didn't ... Some people need somebody to direct them to get help.

pico There was very interesting research done in Kibbutze communes which found that the 'biological' attachment is extremely powerful; there was childcare from birth onwards but the mothers (and it was the mothers), as unpalatable as it is to a number of feminist philosophies, actually NEEDED to care for their own babies.

As Bowlby discovered. So a baby needs a particular responsive caretaker, of course it could be a consistent live in nanny which maybe is what the family that cunningruse is concerned about needs.

But this mother is caring for her own baby at least some of the time, probably more than many who work FT. I still think that as the child becomes more interesting, there is scope for attachment to grow.

Yeah she needs to get help. Poor baby, and poor her. She should at least get some enjoyment out of her child.

I think part of the problem is that new mothers think they will enjoy every moment of every day. So when they don't (because breast feeding hurts, getting up in the middle of the night makes you cranky, no one likes dirty diapers), it makes them feel like a failure. It's ok to like some parts of caring for you baby and not others.

At the end of the day though, if you wish you were childless (not just a break), it's probably time to get help.

I still think that as the child becomes more interesting, there is scope for attachment to grow.

Not in the sense that Bowlby discovered. That biological attachment process needs to happen very early on. And if it hasn't, professional help may be needed as it's possible she won't be able to bond properly with her child.

Won't ever, that was meant to say.

I think whatever you do, you need her dh's support in this as he seems to be 'enabling' her behaviour by not taking the issue seriously. Both of them are not accepting that they are a family and doing things together as a family to help them bond. A couples holiday has been booked instead of a family holiday aswell as weekends away. As they are using gps as caregivers, this suggests both are having trouble accepting that they are a family now.

Would it help if you printed off this thread & gave it to her dh or parents to read? I am suggesting this because the experiences of the posters neglected by their mothers may help them consider how serious it is & could become if left untreated. This might be a mad & risky idea.

Agree with MsVenus, could you show her this thread, OP?

It sounds as though you've been very supportive and gently encouraging; could you perhaps try being a little more pushy (for want of a better word), stress that things aren't getting better, and that something has got to change. I don't mean this as a criticism of your support, I think your friend is lucky to have you.

But how sad that you friend and her DD are missing out on so much.

Secure attachment from birth is needed to a primary caregiver. That primary caregiver doesn't need to be the mother (some women die in childbirth) but usually is for obvious reasons.

In the bonding process of course the mum is very important but not vital as long as they have another carer to bond with and form their initial attachment. This could be dad auntie nan grandad or uncle.