to expect 5.5 yo DD not to draw on walls and DD2 (2.5) to either sit on potty OR wear nappies?

[rhetorician]

aaargh! DD1 has been told a million and one times (and then some) that she can only draw on paper, but every time my back is turned she (in cahoots with little sister) has scribbled on wall/table/etc. It is now one of our house rules - still keeps doing it. Confiscated and binned most of the pencils and crayons, but still she finds them! she is good at drawing and it occupies her, but eventually unless I am watching her like a bloody hawk, she scribbles on something she shouldn't! And repeat. For the various other simple rules we have. She just can't seem to apply them for herself. Grrr.

And DD2, well, we were better off before we tried to potty train her. And breathe...

She will continue to break whatever rules she fancies until the consequences are not worth it to her.

I think you are overthinking her behaviour to a certain extent. She's 5, she doesn't need to get all the graduations in behaviour and why some things are ok some times and other times not. What she does need to get is that you have said no and she doesn't draw on the walls however much she feels like it. You need to go back to basics on the house rules and make sure she's got them before moving onto anything more complex.

Next time I would make her throw the crayons etc in the outside bin and hide any remaining ones where she def can't get them like in the loft. If she loves drawing so much then removal of drawing materials such make an impression if she's choosing to not bother remembering the rule.

It's like my 4.5 DS likes to walk on the side of the supermarket trolley and will push other people out of the way if not checked. He doesn't see why he should move out of their way. Make it a case of you move or your favourite toy goes in the cupboard and suddenly he can remember to do it.

noodleoodle indeed - it's hard to find consequences that matter to her without it tipping over into complete meltdown/panic - I'm not talking about a tantrum which we ignore and just walk away from, but actual distress. You've all given me a lot to think about

I never could break myself of compulsively vandalizing drawing on everything and now I make money off it. Habits haven't changed since I was a kid, I just channel them now to something more acceptable. Now my parents can laugh about all their stuff I ruined drew all over. I'm not sure if that's reassuring or not.

She likes drawing, why not sign her up for art classes. Give her an outlet, different mediums. Then praise the art she's suppose to do "Oh look how good!" and ignore the wall drawings while she cleans it up. She might like all the good attention for her "real" art.

Have you tried asking her why she feels the need to draw all over everything? Usually 5 year olds will give a reason instead of an "I dunno".

friendlyamoeba she is good at drawing, certainly - and likes it. But they both really really liked the idea of having their own blackboard wall in their room, so thanks very much for that suggestion. I've made her sound monstrous - she isn't, but she is very headstrong, a bit quirky and trickier than a lot of children to handle (unlike dd2 who is just 2.5).

Friendly that's what I done with DS. Then it was natural when dd was born.

We have an art wall in my home, all the pictures that they are proud of goes onto that wall.

Not going to lie, it looks a mess. However the DC are proud of every single piece of art on there.

My dd1 was extremely defiant but by constantly not triggering her distress, we were pussyfooting around her a bit til eventually the boundaries got really lax and she was lashing out and throwing things during her paddies. We did get out the big guns then, including lack of computer time and, the worst of all and if I'd posted it on MN everyone probably would have told me not to do it, she had a mega-paddy at us before we went to a well-known theme park (screaming and crying about a very trivial thing in the street) so she didn't go, she stayed home with me and her sister went. I was convinced we had scarred her for life, but for whatever reason, she just needed a very firm line in the sand- you can't lash out at others, say rude things or indeed destroy their property (in a paddy she would throw things in her room). Since then she has never ever laid a finger on us (three or more years ago), thrown anything and in general is well-behaved with the odd bit of sulkiness which I can live with.

I know what you are saying about genuine distress, though. Probably there are better more creative ways to handle this, but for us, with a pretty defiant child, it was firmer real boundaries (which may be quite distressing) and less star chart type efforts which she just didn't really engage with.

napoleon I completely appreciate what you are saying - I think some of the reason she is well behaved at school is because the boundaries are very clear, and perhaps they aren't at home. The rules I set out up thread are a new thing, and she needs to know that we mean them and that they will be enforced. Problem with star chart things is that they are often too far away from the misdemeanour and quickly become subject to attempts to negotiate ("I didn't make a fuss having my hair washed, can I get a tick?" type of thing), especially with a barrister in training argumentative so and so like dd

I think it's also very much a personality thing, my dd2 was much more obedient and would have been devastated to have had something like that happen to her, but our elder dd always went in for that type of brinkmanship and I suppose at some point, you have to be prepared to assert your authority. It is hard though, as I am a softy and as I say, we probably did leave it a long time and try lots of other things than going that way, I'm always amazed when on here people just say- don't let them go to the outing, don't let them do this and that, my inclination is not to get them too upset and disappoint them and sometimes, with quite defiant challenging children, they do end up being more in control than you are and you can't really have that as they get older (you can't ban a 10 year old from having pencils/pens in the house, they need them for homework!) There is no right or wrong though.

sounds like my dd1 at that age. she is 19 now and the most chilled out person on the planet.

when she got a bit older that 5 i did find punishments that worked- not going to brownies, and (ahem) removing her bedroom door.

i also think, with an enormous dose of hindsight, that i was more stressed because she was the oldest. the others have been a doddle in comparison (well at that age anyway).

oh and star charts really didnt work for her. what did help a lot was ignoring the bad behaviour and praising the good. and i know that sounds like lentil weaving but it did work

I do agree that focusing on the positive really helps- in addition to firm boundaries. It isn't either/or, in fact, I think low level nagging at them all the time and sighing and being exasperated is worse than just drawing a line, dishing out a consequence, then getting back to normal and giving lot of positive praise and interaction. You can get into a cycle of low level negativity with children at this age/challenging behaviour.

do a good bit of positive reinforcement, and try to avoid constant nagging - it doesn't work, and nor does yelling, it just frightens her. She is a strange combination of attributes - sensitive in some ways, but bull-headed and obstinate too. When she gets told off/gets a consequence etc we always draw a line then and move on. She'll get there - just has been particularly trying the last few days - probably because it is school holidays and there's no structure to speak of. And not running around enough

Op, when a child is really winding you up I suggest this mental checklist- is she getting more reaction by being naughty than by being good, does she know what the rules are and are the consequences for breaking them logical, consistent and immediate, and are her needs (and yours) being met?.

Having a drawing wall is a great idea, if your dd can understand the difference, lots of praise for drawing on paper, consequences for drawing on wall. (having to sit on the naughty chair for as long as it takes you to remove the evidence? Loss of park trip because we have to scrub the pen off the wall instead? So she understands that when something is spoilt then you are annoyed because you have to spend either time or money putting it right. Good luck!

Your daughter behaves herself at school because she sees there are clearly defined boundaries. It is not normal for a five year old to repeatedly draw on walls when told not to; you have to stop her by demonstrating that there are unpleasant consequences if she continues to disobey you. Simply expecting her not to is insufficient.

what do you have in mind GoblinLittleOwl? what sanction would you use?

Goblin I agree - which I why I am on here! her cousin is due to come for sleepover at end of week and I am more than happy to call this off if her behaviour doesn't improve. But this might just be too far away? Or maybe she doesn't believe that we will actually do it?

Glad my name made you smile. Had a year of ds1 wetting himself. Even now at 6 and a half he dances, we tell him he needs to go, he denies it till blue in the face, dances some more, denies it some more then I need a wee!!!! Now!!!!
Infuriating, as I'm sure your dd1 is, and it's hard to know how tough to be with these stubborn / weak / bbehavioural black spots.They can be very complex creatures at this age, particularly with starting school. Behaving well at school is a very good sign though.

we also have wee denial! better than it was though. and goblin is right, my dd2 is much more keen to try and please and expectation is usually enough, but dd1 is altogether a different proposition

I would plan out your sanction now, I've found ones made when angry or upset tend to be over the top and then you don't want to follow through. Some good ideas were suggested by missy- I would sit down with your dd tomorrow and be very blunt but calm, say 'I'm very annoyed that you are still drawing on walls, this has to stop, if you draw on them again, then it will mean XYZ'- no time for park, time out til you've cleaned up, all pencils/pens now out of reach and no trust to have them in their rooms (mine responded to this as they liked to be able to draw). I wouldn't link it to the sleepover just because it's too far away and not remotely linked.