To wonder about what people in the arms trade feel about their work?

[mrsjavierbardem]

I was at a party recently and realised the circle I was with worked in various aspects of the arms industry. Components, procurement etc in the UK.

I was struck by how much it really chilled me. But also I immediately thought, our whole country's economy depends partly on this industry so it has to be hypocritical of me feel it to be an awful job that I would hate to be involved with. Particularly as these people all adore their children and it seems to me children and the poor are the worst victims of the arms trade, of course they are not the official 'targets' but they are under the bombs and fire aren't they?

So I agree, I am implicated by enjoying our UK democratic lifestyle but it did make me wonder. and I don't think I could actually buy and sell arms knowing how they get used. And the deterrent argument doesn't work for the smaller arms does it?

I just wonder what you think about at night when you've just closed a massive sale of arms?

Really interesting question. I turned down a job interview at an arms manufacturer a couple of years ago. Really needed the job as well so thought quite hard about it but I just couldn't do it. But then I'm not campaigning to have them shut down so maybe I'm just hypocritical and squeamish.

Well the woman I was talking to laughed nervously when she described certain conflicts and how they'd effectively been good for business. She was clearly conscious that success at work had a paradoxically horrific element to it? The nervous laughter and slightly guilty look said it all. She is a lovely upstanding person, I'm sure, but wow, it felt like a really strong question nearly in my mouth 'how do you live with yourself?!'
But of course that would be hypocrisy! But still! There are other industries!

News pictures have little effect but it would be interesting if you saw Gaza being bombed and human suffering and devastation and the newscaster said "Terrible pictures! Awful! Poor, desperate people! But my brother in law has just got the latest Audi because he sold enough of those rockets to both sides to be able to upgrade!'

I always think it's interesting how we love children and we keep our children safe but our country's economy partly depends (I'd like to know how much) on our creating the arms that kill other people's precious children. It feels like an indefensible thing to do. But I don't want to leave the UK and go and live under places where our well made bombs are being dropped!

I guess it depends how you view the tools. Realistically, arms are made globally, so stopping production in the UK wouldn't make any difference, other than we have strict limits on who UK based arms manufacturers sell to. (Not always very sensisble, but limits none the less).

Put another way, would you feel uncomfortable realising you were in a room full of serving soliders? Regardless of what they end up doing most days, the primary purpose of the government paying for and training an army is to have people who are prepared to go and kill other people and are able to do it. They "keep peace" by threats of using physical force if you don't act peacefully, the threat has to be there, or why send them armed with guns to keep peace?

Are you more uncomfortable by being around someone who will make a gun than someone who's trained to use it and is prepared to use it?

We tend to gloss over what our heros are actually paid to do. They are our country's killers - even if they do'nt always do it, that's what they are trained to do and have signed up to do. Now, I personally don't have a problem with that, only with some of the places they've been sent to work and some of the reasons they've been sent. I personally can accept that we do need some people who are prepared to kills others to keep the rest of us safe from those who'd kill/harm us. Therefore I can't have any problem with someone a few steps back being paid to make the equipment in order to make those people better at killing other people.

It's an ethical mess if you think about it too much, but I'd have much more angst working in the tobacco trade than the arms trade!

I have no problem with soldiers, they are working people. They have to be deployed by responsible people which is the job of government.

This is more specific thing. This woman's lovely lifestyle (really lovely, I am a bit jealous) was paid for, bonuses and all, by selling bombs effectively.

That seems an amazing way to make money, that's all. I've met big arms people in the past but they were all American suited and booted types, probably happy to buy and sell bombs, they'd probably happily drop a few on anyone who looked at them funny.

But this was a sweet woman, gentle, funny, intelligent, adores her kids, is loving, I just was so surprised that she's basically an arms dealer. It seems a contradiction to who she appeared to be.

She sells a product, what that product is probably has no effect on her day to day job. A soilders day to day job involves being prepared to directly themselves, kill another human being. Not make the product, not send someone else, not report on it, to do it.

I accept that needs to be done and have no problem personally with people making that choice, I couldn't do it, I could not kill another person just because a politician told me to. I know my own limits plus I'd never pass the physical requirements . I probably could do admin office based job with the army, or the arms trade.

As I said, I'd consider working for the tobacco company, and some large phara companies to be less ethical and more morally questionable.

Why are you so conflicted, she is lovely, good patent etc - I'm quite sure a dictator with dcs could be a devoted parent, so what?
I think you were socialising with a bunch of conscienceless murderers, run for the hills next time.

I have no problem with soldiers, they are working people. They have to be deployed by responsible people which is the job of government.

Without the arms being manufactured and sold that soldier would have nothing to defend our democracy with.

People who work in the arms trade escalate wars; this is simply not the case for soldiers. The arms trade has no interest in peace.
Please remember you are not talking about people who arm our soldiers. They sell to the highest bidder, they sell to oppressive regimes, they sell to both sides in a conflict.

What would matter to me would be the wages for those making them.

I don't know how people buy Cocoa Beans (and other commodities) for as little as they do and sleep at night.

As said the Tobacco Trade and food industry is much more questionable.

Likewise some of the scandals that have involved slave wages/conditions, being supported by huge profit making companies.

My cousin worked in Bio Chemistry, for the military (and interestingly (but sadly) died of strange undisclosed "cancers"). The research he was doing, was very much needed, as was any product development. He isn't responsible for how it is used and unless he was selling to War Lords/Dictators, I wouldn't judge him.

These are legal Arms Dealers? Then they are carrying out a much needed trade.

I joined the Campaign Against the Arms Trade in the 80's.

This year Sudan may be facing famine again, not for environmental reasons but because conflict disrupted planting, so there will be a failed harvest.

War sucks and the arns trade is about money, greed and starving children.

I don't know how they sleep at night.

I can see why you felt uncomfortable. They have chosen a job which, albeit indirectly, contributes to the deaths of others. However I don't really see how you can justify soldiers because they're 'working people' but not the arms dealers, whoa re presumably also working people. Is it just because they're rich? They must also work within government guidelines which mean that they are selling the arms to responsible people? The reality is that sometimes our government's choices are not responsible so arms get sold to the wrong people, or soldiers get deployed to the wrong areas, but I don't really see a distinction. You surely know when you become an arms dealer that those arms may fall into the wrong hands just as you surely know if you join the army you may be deployed to a conflict you don't agree with and kill another human.

I would feel uncomfortable in a room full of arms dealers but, personally, I would feel just as uncomfortable in a room full of soldiers. I am always shocked when I meet seemingly nice people and then find out they are in the military as I cannot rationalise why anybody would choose to work in a profession which means one day they may be involved in killing another person, and possibly even an innocent person, and which helps justify war. I do recognise I hold strong views which are at odds with the way society is taught to see soldiers as 'heroes' and I wouldn't voice my opinion out loud for fear of offending somebody, but I suppose inwardly I do wonder how such people sleep at night.

I wouldn't be friends with then, no matter how 'lovely'. It's just further evidence of how fucked up our global society is that human death and misery is so profitable, and thar so many of us seem okay with that.
Wonder how she feels tucking up her children at night knowing that her product has reduced other people's children to blood and rags?

I don't agree with the Arns Trade being subsidised by the Tax Payer, though.

the Sudan example is because of a hopelessly corrupt and evil government - there are a lot of those.

yes, ideally we would not spend money on weapons, defence, the armed forces. But until the whole world thinks the same, we have to do so.

I also remind anyone in Britain who is not 100% white for at least five generations that if WWII had gone the other way, you would not exist because your parents or grandparents would have been gassed.

Arms dealers would happily sell to Hitler, Specialsubject. I think people believe they exist to help defend out country. They exist to make money.

YANBU to wonder, but it's a pity you didn't ask the people at the party because then you would have got some answers.

I imagine it's a question that comes up quite a lot so they will be used to talking about it. Would also be interested in the answers.

""I also remind anyone in Britain who is not 100% white for at least five generations that if WWII had gone the other way, you would not exist because your parents or grandparents would have been gassed.""

Well my background "isn't White", but the culture I originated from wasn't in WW2 conflict (as such).

Selling weapons doesn't cause deaths, torture, or war.

It just makes it more efficient.

We all sit back to some extent and ignore the suffering, even though we can all play our part.

It's deciding if the intention and levels, should bring extra judgement, or should ignorance (which is in abundance) should be equally judged.

Someone sells arms to the hopelessly corrupt and evil governments special.

Someone who cares more about money than human lives.

The UK would be fucked had it not been for the arms trade, in particular the jets sold to the Saudis netted us billions and billions of pounds.

That's the most depressing thing I've read in a while Badlad . I think you'd need to define "fucked" to know whether you have a point or not.

Well I made a personal point about the moral consequences of how you earn money.

A soldier does not deploy himself and the UK has potential to be a peace keeping force. That is really important and their arms have to be made by someone of course.

But selling arms into the Middle East which we absolutely do. Who is often under those bombs when they fall? Very often it's the people without the resources to move away: the very young, the very poor, the very ill, the very old, women in labour maybe? the medical people looking after them?

I'm not saying I'm any better than anyone else. But I would like to hear what someone who buys and sells bombs has to say about how the rationalise it to themselves. I genuinely think I would not be able to stop thinking about the civilian casualties that these bombs so often hit. If I were to be morally consistent (and certainly if I were a practising Christian) then my children should not be more precious than anyone else's.

My best friend as a kid is an accountant for one of the major military aircraft providers. Gets paid very well, think 6 figures

Last time I saw him was 3 years ago when the same question popped out of my mouth. We havent been in touch since, sadly

I can't square the moral dillema. How can someone sell bombs and pretend to have any kind of morals. It's too much for me.

I also have "friends" who are investment bankers and they are bad enough! They go on about lazy welfare claimants while banking 6 figure bonuses and living in million pound houses, but according to them, it is the poor people in Britain who should be ashamed because they should work harder (seriously, I've had that discussion with them)

I really can't see a problem with it, to me it's no different than a criminal defence lawyer, an abbatoir operator, or even someone who joins the armed forces.

They are not things I would want to do but there are plenty of people that do them, and don't give to thoughts about it or the consequences.

I agree with Bobby. Listening to the news this morning about Gaza was horrifying. I felt ridiculously frustrated that I could not think of anything I could do to help those people.

Do I feel that those who sell arms to Israel or Hamas bear responsibility? Not really. The responsibility lies with the perpetrators.

We should control our arms trade - and use our clout in diplomacy.

Sometimes, unfortunately, the products will be used by death-eating murderous bastards but it doesn't make them that.