To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

[Summerbreezer]

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

[PiperRose]

Ok TucsonGirl say I have a car dealership, I don't think women should be allowed to drive. Am I allowed to refuse to sell you a car?

[VioletHare]

Owning a cardealership is not a protected characteristic.

Being a Christian is.

[doobledootch]

HermioneWeasley but they haven't put a sign up saying 'No Gays' they have refused to put a message on the cake that is in support for a campaign they don't support.

This is why I feel conflicted. If they were just refusing to bake the cake for a same sex marriage I would automatically think they were discriminating and assume there was no argument that in doing so they were acting illegally.

However, to give a probably not very relevant example, I have strong views about environmental issues, and if I was a baker and someone came into my shop and wanted me to bake a cake with a message on it in support of fracking I would refuse to bake it for them. I also wouldn't want to bake a cake for quite a large number of political parties, and probably other campaign groups. So I do support the right of a business not to produce material in support of political campaigns they don't agree with.

[MBT1987]

The issue is complicated - you can't turn around and oppress one group's rights to appease another's, but in either situation, that's what happens here. Either the bakery MUST make the cake, which goes against their principles, or the LGBT group MUST go elsewhere, which impinges on their choice of bakery.

Thing is, voting with wallets will hurt a business' bottom line. You'll sharp get to see how strong the bakery's convictions are once money is flowing in their competitors' directions.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Tucson so you would be happy to go back to the days of places stating openly which groups they would and would not do business with?

Erm no thank you.

FWIW I think that people generally are rather crap and laws help push people in the right direction (and I think that it is the right direction).

[VioletHare]

TBH I think that's what people are forgetting.

Being homosexual is a protected characteristic. As is being a Christian.

Why does one groups beliefs trump the others? Why should one protected group be forced to provide a product so at odds with their beliefs, just because the other group is also protected?

Is being gay 'more important' or deserving of equality and respect than being a Christian?

[ROARmeow]

Ashers cakes are yum. In fact I was at my local branch this morning buying bread.

I would hate for this case to sink the business, as it is such a good local business.

I think it's a bit of a red herring that people are focusing so much on the fact that these men are a gay couple.

IMO, it's not that the bakery or baker had any issue with the fact these men were gay, but just that as a Christian they didn't want to bake a cake which had a message written on it which conflicted with their opinion.

So it wasn't the customer that they disliked, but the message/words on the cake.

Ashers has been in business for years, I'm sure it's sold products to gay people for that whole length of time. Not like they have a sign on the door saying "NO GAYS".

I hate the idea that businesses can't use their discretion in this way. To me, baking is like an art form, and I don't think they should be forced to create items which don't appeal to them.

[alemci]

exactly violethare

[StealthPolarBear]

Violet because one is providing the service. Id say the same in reverse

[SevenZarkSeven]

"I also find it hard to understand that it is ok for some of our local hotels to advertise themselves openly as for gay men only yet it would be illegal for a hotel to cater for straight people only and some have been prosecuted for it"

It would be illegal for a hotel catering to gay men to turn away a straight couple, or indeed a lesbian couple.

I'm rather boggled at the posts saying "well they would be allowed to say no to a pro-paedophilia cake (etc etc lots of posts like that) so why not this" because, well, can you honestly not understand why?

[SevenZarkSeven]

No, "sexual orientation" is a protected characteristic, not "being homosexual".

So straight people are protected as well. YOU are protected if an organisation discriminated against YOU on the basis you are straight. Which, LUCKILY for YOU, is very unlikely to happen.

If you want a cake celebrating marriage between a man and a woman, no-one is going to bat an eyelid.

This thread is such an eye opener. The second one tonight.

I despair.

[writtenguarantee]

I agree with the point earlier: refusing to make a particular cake and refusing to serve a customer because they are black or gay (or both!) is different.

the baker should certainly have the freedom to do the former.

[HermioneWeasley]

As I understand it, they didn't oppose the cake due to some subtlety of political belief around marriage (there are gay people who don't support gay marriage), but their opinion is founded in homophobia - that gay marriage is wrong because homosexuality is a sun according to the bible.

If they woukd have baked a cake that supported straight marriage, or advocated other things proscribed by the bible, then the cause of their refusal to provide a service is unlawful discrimination.

The law around what philosophical and religious beliefs amount to a protected characteristic is still emerging. It is clear that belief not compatible with a democratic society and human dignity are NOT protected (so bang go all the arguments about cakes promoting stoning of women). Something like political or environmental beliefs could amount to a protected characteristic, but very few cases have been tested in the courts.

[Cocolepew]

The Sesame Street makers have said Bert And Ernie aren't a couple before. And wtf would the porn cake be in aid of?

I used to buy Ashers coconut fingers for DH, but won't now. I respect their right to turn down commissions but I'm sick and tired of Christianity ruling this country.

[PosyFossilsShoes]

Why does one groups beliefs trump the others? Why should one protected group be forced to provide a product so at odds with their beliefs, just because the other group is also protected?

They don't - and it's a common fallacy that one group 'trumps' another and that the law is asked to decide whether gays or Christians 'win.'

The service provider must not discriminate against a consumer as a result of their protected characteristics.

So a Christian bakery can't refuse to serve a gay customer, a gay bakery can't refuse to serve a Christian customer.

If the service provider is allowed to discriminate then you could potentially end up with a Wahhabi driving instructor refusing to teach girls, a Scientologist shop assistant refusing to sell anybody paracetamol, etc.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Although religious groups rights DO trump the rights of others, they have exemptions from the equality legislation at a europe-wide level for certain areas.

Which pisses me off but there you go.

I'm not buying the poor hard-done by christians thing TBH.

[RebeccaCloud9]

Don't know about the legalities or anything, but I do think they are unreasonable for being homophobic in the first place!

[duckyneedsaclean]

I don't think he was grouping homosexuality under the banner of porn and offensive language. I imagine he was pointing out that they had turned down commissions from plenty of people before (for other legal things that he disagrees with) and didn't see why this should cause such a fuss.

I disagree that this baker's personal freedom over what cakes he makes should be less important than the customers freedom over what they want on a cake.

The customers can surely just go to another bakery?

Asking a shop to make a custom item is never a guaranteed right, and I would expect to ask on a few places if I was commissioning something.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Yes quietbat I expect a lot of people will be keen to support them.

I would think this would do their business more good than harm.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Quietbat, AFAIK this bakery did not refuse to serve anyone. They refused to create a PR piece for them. Are you saying that if the ECHR deem racists or Anti Choicers protected I should have to create cakes, or anything else they want to promote their message?

[BeCool]

I think they will never get a penny from me - and hopefully a lot of other people will feel the same.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Dione that is a ludicrous statement.

The Equalities Act is unlikely to deem Racism a protected characteristic. Like, really really unlikely. You understand that, right?

[FreeWee]

I am a practising Christian and I still think they are dicks. Christians use the Bible to act in a bigoted way. Surely if they believe they should love the sinner but hate the sin they should bake the cake to provide good customer service to the gay person. If they wouldn't bake a cake for an inter racial marriage as someone suggests that would be equally bigoted. You cannot be in the service industry and refuse service based on protected characteristics. I believe it's semantics to say they were refusing the message not refusing the gay customer. Northern Ireland has different laws so I'm not even sure if the Equality Act applies but there are too many Christians who hide behind the Old Testament stories to justify bigoted behaviour.

[SevenZarkSeven]

FWIW I think it probably would be illegal for a business to supply things with racist slogans on, wouldn't it?

Hate speech
Hostile working environment
If the cake was for anyone to see, incitement

So that's a rubbish example all round.