To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

[Summerbreezer]

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Seven I am aware that really, really unlikely acts and laws have been enacted throughout history.

[Cyclebump]

Ooh, I like the fracking example. That's why I feel conflicted!

Ignoring the fact the customer was gay, it's a political message.

[SevenZarkSeven]

You think there is a genuine chance that the Equalities Act is going to have Racism written into it?

And all the laws around not murdering people because they're black and stuff are going to be repealed?

Erm. Well it's not on the cards in the foreseeable future, unless you have an extraordinarily bleak view of the UK.

[claraschu]

Would they bake a cake that says "Eat shellfish"?

The bible condemns shellfish consumption 6 times and homosexuality only once.

[SevenZarkSeven]

It's not a political message as much as an equality message.

Although clearly these types of things have become political issues, and are referred to as such, but fundamentally they're humanity issues aren't they.

If the cake was to say "Vote Yes to Scottish Independence" (which would be a niche order in an NI bakery) then that would be a political message purely IYSWIM.

Like abortion is often described as a political issue but really it's a women's / equality / humanity issue at it's core.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Fucking shellfish.

It's their fault society's going to the dogs.

[ReallyTired]

I feel the baker should have the right to refuse to make a particular design of cake, but not the right to refuse to make a cake for a gay couple. When I had my wedding cake made I chose a cake for a catalogue. It was made clear that if I wanted something slightly different they would have to get back to me to see if it was possible.

If the bakery had said to the gay couple you can have any cake in our catalogue, but we can't make one with the words "queerspace" on it then they would have been in the law.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Are you saying that law should be able to compel me to create something to promote an idea that I oppose Seven?

[writtenguarantee]

If they woukd have baked a cake that supported straight marriage, or advocated other things proscribed by the bible, then the cause of their refusal to provide a service is unlawful discrimination.

I am not a lawyer, but that sounds too convoluted for the law deal with.

I think the baker has an easy legal out. he can offer to bake the gay couple a cake, just not that cake.

but they should be allowed to refuse. they shouldn't have to make a cake that they don't want to, and that's distinct from making a cake for who they want/not want to.

[treaclesoda]

beastofburden, slightly off topic I know, but it's not strictly true to say that 'these people' rarely care about eg divorce and remarriage. The majority of the NI Christians that I know (which is, when I think about it, most of the people I know!) are very strictly against divorce, and even more opposed to divorcees remarrying. Rather worryingly I even know quite a few who don't believe in divorce even in the case of domestic violence.

[FreeWee]

Mmmm mmmm fishy cake Zark I suspect they are probably of the 'pick and choose which bits of the Bible I'm bigoted about' kinds of Christians.

Ban shellfish messages on cakes. Especially SpongeBob and his mates. Down with crabs... Errrrr.

[SevenZarkSeven]

I don't think you should be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of characteristics protected by the equalities laws, Dione.

They make cakes which support heterosexual marriage AKA wedding cakes, I'm sure.
They refused to make a cake supporting homosexual marriage, because, you know, URGH GAYS.

So yes. I am saying that. That is what I think

[SevenZarkSeven]

treaclesoda

Yikes.

I am perpetually horrified by NI abortion law.

[Andrewofgg]

What if it was a cake saying NO ABORTION HERE?

[ReallyTired]

My wedding cake was asexual. It had blue flowers with green leaves for the design. I can't see why my wedding cake was particualarly hetrosexual. It was fruit cake - yum!

The baker should have offered to bake a cake of a different design and kept quiet about his christian beliefs.

[SevenZarkSeven]

They have BOGOF on those andrew.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Seven, they haven't refused a to make a wedding cake for a gay couple while making cakes for heterosexual couples (AFAIK). They have refused to produce a cake to promote something they don't believe in.

Do you think the law should be able to compel people to produce PR pieces?

[BookABooSue]

The baker has the right to say 'no'. The customer can shop elsewhere. It's not the only bakery in the village
The first bakers I contacted for a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cake couldn't do it. I went elsewhere.
Let's say the bakers had made the cake. Then the pic of the cake was put online by Queerspace with a reference to the bakery. That would look like the bakery was endorsing Queerspace's campaign. The bakery have a right not to be co-opted into a campaign in that way.

[owlbegoing]

Presumably they would refuse to make a cake along man evolved from ape lines then??

[claraschu]

What if they refused to make a cake with an interracial couple pictured on it? ... because the bible says: "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren" (and obviously the curse is his dark skin colour, so God never meant him to marry a white person)?

Would anyone defend the cakemakers right to object to interracial marriage?

[doobledootch]

andrewofgg abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland, there would be much more controversy if it was a pro-choice cake

[ReallyTired]

"Would anyone defend the cakemakers right to object to interracial marriage?"

The cake maker can not refuse to provide a cake. They can refuse to make a cake that is not in their catalogue.

What if an inter-race couple wants a cake that is really complicated. ie. a cake with complex hindu designs as well as traditional western features. If the baker said "That design is too complex for me to make" would he be done for racism. (Especially if the problem is confidence as he has never made such a cake before.)

[manicinsomniac]

The shellfish argument is as ridiculous as the racist slogan argument. Eating of shellfish is prohibited in the Old Testament, under the old covenant. The whole point of Christianity is that Jesus' death brought grace and removed the need for rules and regulations ('the only way to the Father is through me' etc). Paul condemns homosexuality in the New Testament which is why some Christians still see it as wrong. Personally I think that
a) there is a strong likelihood that the accurate translation is more akin to sodomy (homosexual rape of a young boy by an older man) than homosexuality which I have no problem condemning as a sin and
b) that, even if Paul did mean it was wrong to be gay then he is just a man of his specific time and culture and there is no need for modern day Christians to follow anything so bigoted.

The bakery story has made me really sad. It's yet more bad press for Christianity, more evidence that bigots are still at large and more evidence that homosexuals still have to struggle to get what heterosexual individuals would never struggle for.

I absolutely think the bakery should have made the cake. In all the other suggested comparable dilemmas (fracking, EDL, politics, anti women etc) it is either understandable or correct that the hypothetical baker would be against the message. In this case it is neither understandable nor correct. It is bigoted.

But, reluctantly, I concede that the business probably has the right to refuse to make any cake it chooses.

[SuburbanRhonda]

So supporters of the bakery would be happy if we went in this direction?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Suburban, I don't think that anyone on this thread has said that the bakery should be allowed to refuse to serve customers on the basis of sexual orientation.