To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

[Summerbreezer]

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

[Pregnantberry]

FreeWee no, because refusing to serve someone based on a protected characteristic is different to what the bakers did, which was refuse to make something with a message on it which they found offensive. The man asking for it could have been straight but a LGBT rights supporter, for all they knew.

Refusing to serve a woman a cake because she is pregnant isn't a good comparison, a better one would be refusing to bake a cake for a pregnant woman/anyone which says "Overeat, drink and get high while pregnant #YOLO" because you disagree with the message.

[TucsonGirl]

If they don't want to do it, they absolutely have the right to turn down the customer.

[Sollers]

As an atheist feminist, I would like to think I reserve an equivalent right to refuse to engage in, say, the promotion of stoning women via the medium of cake, although I wouldn't refuse to serve Muslim customers (extreme example for illustration purposes only).

Yes, I agree with this. If I was a baker, I would turn down a hypothetical commission from a man that wanted a cake with "wimminz is bitchez" on it. I would not turn down commissions from all men, however.

Even though I don't agree with the baker, I think he was within his rights.

[Summerbreezer]

I'm a lawyer (although not in this area) and I find the words "legally allowed to refuse those commissions" make me wince.

Surely, our freedoms have to extend to a choice about whether to bake a cake or not without the interference of the law.

On another note, my birthday is coming up and there are some excellent cake slogan suggestions in this thread! .

[HermioneWeasley]

I think the law in the case will ride on the correct comparator.

I agree with the OP who said that a cake promoting heterosexual marriage is the correct comparator. In which case it is unlawful discrimination.

And hateful opinions would not be a protected religious or philosophical belief under the Equality act.

[StealthPolarBear]

I think it's very dodgy ground. They refused a commission because of homosexuality. I do see the difference in refusing the decorate the cake vs refusing to serve the person but when I come down to it I dont see that this is any different from the b and b owners

[HermioneWeasley]

OP, it's not about freedom to bake a cake or not, it's about whether you can discriminate in the provision of goods and services. Whether or not this is found to be unlawful discrim will (I think) depend on who the comparator is deemed to be.

You could say that the Christian guest house people should have the freedom to decide who stays in their house. Which would be fine if it wasn't the basis for their business.

[MaidOfStars]

The bakery haven't equated gay marriage with pornography. They used the request for pornographic images an example of another reason that they have refused commissions.

Feeling slightly weird that I appear to be defending homophobic Christians. It's entirely selfish though, because I would prefer to be able to maintain my right to conscientious objection when I see fit.

[Summerbreezer]

Me too, MaidofStars! But has often been pointed out - popular, middle of the road freedoms aren't the ones that need protecting.

The Equality Act scares me more and more each day.

Sometimes, I think there is nothing so intolerant as tolerance.

[Hoppinggreen]

How about refusing to bake a cake promoting the EDL or Muslim Brotherhood ( unlikely I know).
As a business they should be allowed to refuse any custom as long as they do it in a polite and non offensive way.
I support Gay rights and marriage but I also accept that some people's religion teaches them ( wrongly IMO) that being gay is wrong and in that case they should not be forced to do something they feel goes against what they believe in.
There are plenty of bakeries that would do this cake so why not use another one unless this was a Gay rights organisation deliberately making a point?

[SevenZarkSeven]

Well yes they have. Because they have said that they put homosexual relationships in the same category as pornography and obscenity. In that, they are things that they deem unsuitable to put on a cake. Porn, obscenity, gayness.

His words are pretty clear surely.

[StealthPolarBear]

But pornography is not protected. People who like porn are not a minorty protected under law.
and tbh I find that a big disingeneous. To me its clear why theyd refuse porn.

[SevenZarkSeven]

"popular, middle of the road freedoms aren't the ones that need protecting.

The Equality Act scares me more and more each day."

The freedoms to discriminate against people due to their race, sex, sexuality etc etc....? Yes they are very important middle of the road freedoms

[SevenZarkSeven]

The church has shit-tons of exemptions from the equality act already though.

Probably the only organisation that does

[SevenZarkSeven]

I am crazy for the eyebrow on this thread.

!

[HermioneWeasley]

If you don't think that businesses should be able to refuse service on the basis of race, disability or gender, I don't understand why so many MNetterrs think it's OK for homosexuality.

If they had refused to bake a cake decorated to promote interracial marriage or disability rights because their giant sky pixie said these things were wrong, would everyone think that is ok?

[doobledootch]

Maria33 same sex marriage has not yet been passed into law in Northern Ireland so I don't think that argument would hold on a legal basis. (For the record I find it appalling that same sex marriage isn't law here, I'm just making the point about legal argument)

I feel disappointed that this has happened but I do feel inclined to fall in line with the point that pregnantberry makes that they have the right not to make any cake that they want but not to refuse to serve someone on the basis that they are gay.

I wonder if they have ever refused to bake a civil partnership cake, they must have been asked at some point?

Also were Bert and Ernie not brothers?

[StealthPolarBear]

So they wont make a cake for an interracial marriage as they disagree. (Small bride and groom in true 80s cheesey style) Would everyone really be defending their right to do this?