To think that 99% of children can learn to sing with the right encouragement

[ReallyTired]

I have friends who complain that there two year old cannot sing. They are negative about their child's singing attempts. I believe that telling a small child that they can't sing is likely to damage their confidence so they stop attempting to sing. Learning to hold a tune is skill that is developed with practice.

You are right. Small children can rarely sing in tune ime. DS couldn't at all, but now he is seven his relative pitch is excellent.

I would think most 2 year olds can't sing, but they certainly enjoy trying and it's lovely to encourage.

Your friends ABU.

It can improve, but not everyone can control their voice as well as others, a bit like anything else physical I would think.

You obviously have never heard my DD2 sing! At age 16 she still sounds terrible and despite being told this all her life she has grown up pretty confident. She even sings aloud- tunelessly.

I suspect at age 2 it is a bit harsh to be so negative though.

Definitely.

DH is "tone deaf". He can hold a tune - but only one he knows very well, and only at a very low pitch.

I was convinced DD1 was heading the same way until she had piano lessons. Within only a few weeks of one-to-one music tuition, she was suddenly singing in tune. And the teacher wasn't even trying to teach her to sing! It just took a quiet room and a scenario in which she was encouraged to really listen to the music.

Now I feel sad for DH, who was excluded from his infant school choir and has been convinced he "can't sing" ever since .

It depends on what you consider as 'singing' I suppose.

If it's not sounding like a cat with its bollocks caught in a barbed wire fence, while singing a fairly 'run of the mill' song then YANBU...I think most people can carry that off.

If it's singing songs with a wider variety of pitches, then YABU as singing is really not for everyone.

But no-one should be telling a 2yr old they can't sing because ime they just enjoy doing it.

I can't sing a note but I still reserve my right to do so when I'm drunk or in the shower

littlewhitebag has your daughter ever had any singing training?

No amount of voice training will make a child sound like Aled Jones or Charlotte Church if they have no talent. However a little bit of voice training can make an awful singer sound acceptable. The human voice is an instrument and the majority of children can improve their singing.

Our church choir doesn't have any auditions and has a probation period instead. They accept any child provided that they attend the practices. Last year a nine year old girl who couldn't hold a tune joined. After six months her singing has improved dramatically. I doult she will ever make a career of singing, but her singing sounds Ok.

I wonder how many so called "tone deaf" people were people who were told as small children that they couldn't sing.

Two years old? What's he singing?

Nessun Dorma or The Wheels on the Bus?!!

You can definitely teach singing

Dd had a voice like a dead cat being strangled - after 3 years of singing lessons she's now in a band and done grade 6 singing.

Her voice was seriously awful - really, really bad

I think you are right, OP. The voice is an instrument, with training it can and will improve. Good quality training and lessons make all the difference - I've been singing for over 20 years and if I have a few weeks of lessons the difference in quality is noticeable. It's all a technique. Of course some people are better than others, but I doubt there's anyone who wouldn't be improved by training.

Can you make a coherent argument for dedicating resources to improve a singing voice to 'acceptable' instead of dedicating resources to improve maths ability to 'acceptable'?

Why?

Children learn to talk because people talk to them. If you grow up in a family/ culture where people sing you will grow up being able to sing. The problem is that we live in a culture where singing has been professionalised- music is something we buy, not something everything does. Imagine if your friends laughed at their two year old's attempt at speaking because s/he doesn't sound like a professional public speaker yet? Your friends are probably uncomfortable with singing themselves, and are teaching their child not to sing. What a pity.

Our school has an intensive music programme. They all sing constantly. They sing the register in the mornings and their goodbyes in the afternoons. There's one poor lad who, four years later, still can't sing the register in tune. Four notes, the same four twice a day every day. I'm sure there are lots of people who just need a bit of training, encouragement, confidence etc. But some people really are tone deaf.

ds had a good untrained voice and is lucky in having an excellent sense of pitch. Singing in a choir improved his ablity to project his voice, posture , know when to breathe and sing with good diction. Recently ds has started one to one singing lessons and his progress has been amazing.

I feel that with singing that self belief is 99% of the battle. There is a difference between saying a child can't sing and a child hasn't yet learnt how to sing. Very few teachers have any clue on how to teach singing. The voice is the cheapest instrument and schools don't do enough to captialise on it.

Anyone can be taught to sing and hold a note. It will be harder work for some though. Some people just sound better than others

Hmmm I was the 1% then! I was in the choir at school, we all had to be unless the parents gave a request for us not to be.

My Mum insisted that I be in the choir as she thought it would teach me to sing. The instructor was very good, very optimistic and very thorough. However, when I persisted in asking to leave, despite not having parental permission, she 'bent' the rules to let me go.....

For some time afterwards, when hearing the choir perform, I though to myself 'Oh, that funny grating noise has gone......' Then the penny dropped.

So for some kids, there is no hope. But a parent should keep trying - and this is way too young to give up.

sounding like a cat with its bollocks caught in a barbed wire fence

Dd had a voice like a dead cat being strangled -

I LOVE MUMSNET!!!

I am really, seriously tone deaf, I didn't sing between leaving school (where it was often compulsory) and going to bounce and rhyme with the DC. Since then I have ended up leading the singing at a couple of playgroups, which people who have known me all my life would struggle to believe - it's accident not design.

DS2 loves singing and playing any musical instrument, someone at playgroup was commenting on it, while he was playing the piano at the entrance. I can only guess they are even more tone deaf than me, as they then went on to say that it was inevitable as he came from such a musical family .

I think sometimes having the confidence to get up there and do it, is far more important than being able to hold a note

"Can you make a coherent argument for dedicating resources to improve a singing voice to 'acceptable' instead of dedicating resources to improve maths ability to 'acceptable'?"

In the foundation stage lots of singing develops auditory perception. If a child develops a good ear then they find it much easier to learn phonics. I believe that there is a link between true tone deafness and dyslexia. Singing nursery rhymes improves language skills, teaches maths skills and aids concentration.

A well balanced curriculum has more than just numeracy and literacy. Sport and the arts are important as well to produce a well rounded child. i can accept the argument that singing is less important once you get beyond infants.

Dd1 is what I would describe as tone deaf. She unfortunately is very enthusiastic about singing, is a member of her primary school choir and asks on a regular basis ' do you think I have a nice voice' and proclaims that she is amazing at singing. I do admire her confidence but can see how some of these people get as far as X Factor auditions without realising how utterly cacophonous they are, as it would break my heart to actually answer her truthfully. I suspect she may find out in September when she gets to high school and is rejected from the audition only choir

i had piano / singing lessons for 3 years age 9-12. lovely teacher and I enjoyed it, but by the end I still couldn't play more than jingle bells or hit a single note in singing (ever). the teacher would play a note and I simply couldn't hear if the sound coming out of my mouth was higher or lower than the one she played. Soon after, I stopped singing altogether.

However, I am not officially amusic (have been tested, see here www.brams.umontreal.ca/amusia-general/)

So, yes it would be lovely to be able to sing, but I can manage without and it didn't harm my maths ability either.

Parietal But -Amusics- people with amusia can be taught to sing, there was a study on it not that long ago:

research.ioe.ac.uk/portal/en/publications/is-there-potential-for-learning-in-amusia-a-study-of-the-effect-of-singing-intervention-in-congenital-amusia(38da9c8d-8a47-42b4-9290-84ca06a349a7).html

I'm sure it needs different teaching and methods which is why you may not have managed it in the school setting however much you enjoyed it. Mind you I've never shown any interest in doing it either as another amusic.

Our old music teacher believed everyone could be taught to sing. She succeeded with 99% of us... my DH was the 1%

I do agree with you, and think a good ear can be useful for languages and for moderating your speech and accent to suit the situation (public speaking etc), as well as team work in a choir. I just also think that it is cruel to give false hope to those who are truly awful!

I have no idea how common true amusica is. I suppose its the opposite extreme to having perfect pitch. I guess that there must be degrees of amusia like there are levels of absolute (perfect) pitch. Defining what amusica is must be as hard as defining what perfect pitch is. (Ie. realising that the toilet flushes in Eflat)

Schools aren't particularly great at teaching children without amusica to sing. A lot of teachers encourage children to sing loudly rather than actually in tune. It is better to teach posture than to encourage chidlren to "belt it out". I think that singing is hard to teach to a large mixed ablity group.

This is very interesting. I definitely CANNOT sing (many people I have encountered in my life will tell you this!), but I never really thought that training could improve it. I don't suspect it would make me particularly good though. I don't believe that everybody can properly sing, same as not everybody can run fast, but can improve with practise.

I danced for 20 years, and I would certainly say that not everybody can dance well at all, even after a few glasses of wine! And most people will definitely not "get" the finer details of dance even after years of childhood training. You can be told at 11 that you won't enter the Royal Ballet, so I agree somewhat with AnnaBegins that you shouldn't give false hope to older children.