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AIBU?

To think that Saville was NEVER a "Much loved family favourite"???

684 replies

MrsWinnibago · 26/06/2014 13:33

Sorry to start a thread about this sick, awful animal but they just said on Radio 4 that he was a much loved family favourite.

I CLEARLY remember watching him on Jim'l Fix It and thinking "Oh he's HORRIBLE!"

I hated him...he was frightening and I could see that some children were very scared of him on that show.

Did ANYONE actually enjoy his "performances" and appearances?? I don't think so.

I think the establishment kept him where he was...on TV and in positions of power because he knew too much about THEIR activities.

And it's funny how it all came out once he was dead and couldn't name anyone else.

I challenge anyone to think back and remember how much they "loved" him at the time before his activities were known.

OP posts:
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PhaedraIsMyName · 01/07/2014 23:49

limited you know what I think. I think it would be possible to remove the statue without damaging the building. Buildings get altered. There's nothing odd or peculiar in that. There will be few historic houses/ stately homes that haven't been altered over the years.

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PhaedraIsMyName · 01/07/2014 23:54

Haklyut to paraphrase you - why don't you answer the question? You seem to have plenty of opinions on everything else, given you were so sure you were right everyone who said they never liked Savile were lying.

So does the LPs music withstand Watkins' activities? As far as I'm aware they weren't writing songs about paedophilia.

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Hakluyt · 02/07/2014 00:03

"So does the LPs music withstand Watkins' activities? As far as I'm aware they weren't writing songs about paedophilia."

I don't know. Is it fantastic music? I am very ignorant about it. If people who understand that sort of music think that it is an important contribution to the genre, then yes, I think I think it shoud withstand Watkins.

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TucsonGirl · 02/07/2014 00:18

The Independent re-published an old interview from 1990

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/it-was-a-relief-when-i-got-the-knighthoodbecause-it-gotme-off-the-hook-an-exclusive-interview-with-savile-from-1990-has-a-new-meaning-9571057.html

Most alarming passage:

"It still doesn’t explain the great mystery of his non-existent love life. His name has only ever been linked to one woman, his mother, whom he called the Duchess.

He was devoted to her – the more so, perhaps, because, as the youngest child of seven, he’d had a fairly scant share of her attention. “I wasn’t her favourite by any means; I was fourth or fifth in the pecking order.” But when he became famous, he laid his fame and money at her feet, and they had 16 years before she died in 1973 where she had “everything”. He once told Joan Bakewell: “We were together all her life and there was nothing we couldn’t do. I got an audience with the Pope. Everything. But then, I was sharing her. When she died she was all mine. The best five days of my life were spent with the Duchess when she was dead. She looked marvellous. She belonged to me. It’s wonderful, is death.”"

...words fail me.

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meringue33 · 02/07/2014 12:48

Wonder if we will ever get to the bottom of what creates monsters like him.

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RockandRollsuicide · 02/07/2014 13:47

*
TucsonGirl

i THINK WE as a society are very naive thinking men like savile didnt have sexual urges or even some other seemingly celebate pop stars...A kind man devoted to his mum....

Its time to wake up and smell the roses, we are essentially animals in animals bodies

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Scarletohello · 02/07/2014 15:36

Meringue, a few years ago I was teaching a course about child sexual abuse and one of the issues was about whether ( male) child victims would go on to be abusers themselves. Apparently if they received good support themselves in the early days then this wasn't likely. However, unfortunately if support wasn't available, it increased the likelihood of them becoming abusers themselves...

Not saying it is inevitable or always the case, but it is a factor...but it does highlight how important it is for young people to be able to access professional support if they are the victim of such a crime. Sadly, I don't think this is always available.

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RockandRollsuicide · 02/07/2014 16:40

Sadly, I don't think this is always available

not always known available, good and so on.

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SarahAndFuck · 02/07/2014 18:12

OP I agree with you. I never liked him or his show either and I never understood why anybody else did.

I didn't 'know' anything, I didn't have a 'feeling' about him and even as an adult I hadn't heard any rumours about him or any accusations.

But as a child I just didn't like him and that never changed. I didn't like the way he looked, the way he had his hair, I hated his track suits and his jewellery and his godawful cigar and the stupid noise he used to make and his 'now then' catchphrase. Looking at him made me feel sick, that was all.

Perhaps I was just a shallow child who judged people on appearance but that's all I thought about him, I just didn't like how he looked or dressed or spoke. I didn't know anything or suspect anything, there was just nothing about him that appealed to me in any way. And his show was boring.

Actually as an adult, if I thought about him at all, I felt slightly guilty for disliking someone who seemed to work so hard for charity. So when the accusations became common knowledge and were actually being admitted to as being true, I was as shocked as anybody, because I'm not claiming I knew anything or suspected anything.

But he was never a family favourite of mine. I just didn't like him.

I did always like Rolf though.

I don't think it's fair to say that anyone claiming to have never liked JS or anybody else is victim blaming or trying to pretend they always 'knew' something. Any more so than it is fair to blame the children who genuinely did like him for not realising something was wrong with him.

I knew nothing about him but I did know that his cigar and hair in particular revolted me as a child and nothing changed my dislike of him as I grew up. Like the OP, I can remember feeling that revulsion and wondering why everybody else seemed so keen on him.

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MrsWinnibago · 02/07/2014 19:02

I always liked Rolf Sarah. So obviously I'm not "blessed" with any foresight...or real "instinct"

With my dislike of Savile it was down to that ONE interaction I witnessed on Jim'l fix it when he was openly....short tempered towards a child who seemed to be afraid of him...and who sat with a scared deer-in-the-headlights look on their face...I saw his response and "knew" he was not a nice person.

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TucsonGirl · 02/07/2014 19:50

There's plenty of celebrities who aren't quite the friendly face we see on TV in real life, but that doesn't necessarily equate to them being "not a nice person".

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PhaedraIsMyName · 02/07/2014 21:52

Tucson I don't think that's what anyone was saying. Sarah's post is spot on however.

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Hakluyt · 02/07/2014 23:08

I just think it's important to think about why people feel that they just instinctively "knew' there was something not right about Saville- but didn't feel that way about Harris (except for a few somewhat pathetic band wagon jumpers).

Why do we think that is?

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ComposHat · 02/07/2014 23:32

No one 'knew' Jimmy Saville was a prolific child abuser (apart from those who experienced abuse at his hands) they got a sense of appearing on TV that he was unconventional and on occasions unpleasant and self agrandising. Finding him unpalatable is not the same thing as knowing he was a serial sex offender. Anyone who said they 'knew' on the basis of a TV appearance is a billy bullshitter.


Likewise there are plenty of odd, awkward unsociable people who don't abuse kids. Likewise there are people who appear avuncular like Rolf Harris who are sex offeners.

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PhaedraIsMyName · 03/07/2014 00:34

I don't think anyone is saying they "knew" Savile was a wrong 'un. Sarah put it very well, right down to feeling a teeny bit guilty about being snobbish about someone who raised so much money for charity.

I have no interest in shows like Jim"ll Fix it, I don't think I ever saw it. I didn't like him for the reasons she sets out, he was ugly,inarticulate, tacky and annoying. He wasn't exactly say George Clooney or Thierry Henry.

As for why Rolf didn't provoke that reaction in me, you only have to look at the 2. I'd have died of embarrassment if I had a relative who looked and behaved like Savile ; Rolf is merely a slightly dull "dad" type bloke.

No-one is claiming special powers, if anything Sarah and I are guilty of judging a book by its cover.

When the Rolf allegations were first made I commented on another forum (a music one) something along the lines of Savile was a creep but I can't believe Rolf is. I got a roasting (rightly) from one of the blokes on it who is usually as unPC as Clarkson about what a stupid thing it was to say.

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Hakluyt · 03/07/2014 07:04

"No-one is claiming special powers, if anything Sarah and I are guilty of judging a book by its cover."

Absolutely you and Sarah aren't claiming special powers- but many on this thread are, or are claiming them for the parents- when they are, as you so honestly say you did, merely looking at someone unconventional and weird and extrapolating.

It's the judging a book by it's cover point I am trying to make. If a tiny speck of light can come from this ghastly thing maybe it could be that nobody ever again says "trust your instincts" about things like this.

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SarahAndFuck · 03/07/2014 10:00

I don't know, I think there is a lot to be said for trusting certain instincts.

Not in my case with JS, because those weren't instincts, they were prejudices, and I would be very wrong to claim I always knew what he was just based on my very strong childhood dislike of the way he looked and sounded.

But in MrsWinnebago's case with him, she saw a behaviour from him that her instincts didn't like. She still had no idea just what he really was, but her instincts, based on something far more genuine than his appearance, told her that something wasn't right and she trusted them.

When I was growing up, I was probably eight at the time, there was an older boy who lived nearby, he would have been about ten or eleven I think. He was just a normal boy and people seemed to like him but I never did.

There was something off about him as far as I was concerned and I can remember crying and saying I didn't want to go to a party because he would be there. It was a children's party arranged by my Grandmother's place of work, so probably 100 children attending and parents didn't stay, there were helpers so parents could leave. He was the only person there that I knew and I didn't want him to come and talk to me.

I couldn't explain why though, I didn't have the words to say how he made me feel and he hadn't ever done anything to me. So I was told not to be silly, to find someone else to talk to, to just go because I probably wouldn't even see him with so many other children there.

But I did see him, he didn't leave me alone the whole time and he kept saying things that made me feel weird. Would I be his girlfriend, had I ever kissed anybody, did I have hair yet, did I ever touch between my legs, did I know what sex was, did I want to have sex with him.

I was a bit of a naive child, I had no idea what he was talking about, but I knew it was bad. I didn't want to be anybody's girlfriend, I kissed lots of people, he could see my hair, I touched there when I wiped after going to the toilet, I had no idea what sex was but I knew I didn't want to have it with him. Just the fact that he was asking meant it was a bad thing as far as I was concerned and that also meant I knew I didn't want to tell my Mum what he had actually said.

I didn't want to answer him, I kept walking away and he was following me, whispering these things and even pretending to one of the helpers that he was asking me to dance and she made me dance with him. They liked the older ones to help with the younger ones and she thought he was being nice.

And I still didn't know what he was or how to tell my Mum what he'd said to me, I didn't want to tell her all of it because I knew it was bad and I didn't want to say it, even though I didn't understand what it meant. It was just bad. I tried to hide from him for the rest of the party and cried for a good bit of it as well. A woman helping told me off for being silly.

I know some of the other girls at school felt the same way about him, I used to watch him talking to someone in the street or playground, usually younger girls like me, and you would see the point where they got scared and confused by what he was saying. I think I'd probably picked up on this before he said those things to me and knew he was someone to avoid.

After that party he did approach me a couple of other times but I did my best to avoid him and even asked my older brother to warn him off, although again I couldn't explain why.

I was in my twenties and living away when I heard that he had been charged with sex offences against children And that's when it made sense to me. I hadn't thought about him for years, he'd gone up to senior school before me and then we moved before I was due to go to senior school, so I went to a different one to him anyway.

I think the first time I thought about him was when my cousin told me he was in prison and she said "Do you remember X?" I said I did and that I had never liked him because he gave me the creeps and she said "Well he's in prison for sexually abusing children" and everything he'd done and said fell into place. One of his victims was a girl in my class, who he touched at school during the same year he was bothering me.

That time, I was right to trust my instincts, even though I didn't understand them at the time. They weren't based on any prejudice about his appearance or anything, just instincts based on what I had seen him act like with others and eventually what he said to me.

So I do think instincts have their place, as long as they are instincts and not just prejudices.

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SarahAndFuck · 03/07/2014 10:01

And sorry, that was much longer than I thought.

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MrsWinnibago · 03/07/2014 11:16

Sarah that's terrible :( I'm so sorry you were one of his victims. :( :(

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SarahAndFuck · 03/07/2014 12:09

I feel a little removed from it actually, not like a victim in the way that the other girl was anyway.

Someone said some things to me that I didn't like and didn't understand, and no harm came to me other than a bad feeling and a few tears that I forgot about for years.

Thinking about it now, it feels more like a lucky escape or a near miss than a thing I was a victim of. Although that said, I'm not trying to trivialise it for anyone else who has been through a similar situation. It's just the way I feel, I appreciate others might feel very different.

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RockandRollsuicide · 03/07/2014 12:58

Absolutely you and Sarah aren't claiming special powers- but many on this thread are, or are claiming them for the parents- when they are, as you so honestly say you did, merely looking at someone unconventional and weird and extrapolating

what a load of rubbish of course they havant no one has.

talk about pointless derailment of a thread.


If a tiny speck of light can come from this ghastly thing maybe it could be that nobody ever again says "trust your instincts" about things like this

we all need to get more in touch with our instincts they are there to protect us..many people are not truely in touch with them because they never allow them to develop,

I had a child hood running a gauntlet of dodgy people and my instincts got me through that thanks.

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Hakluyt · 03/07/2014 13:25

Read the thread, RockandRoll. It's full of "my mum wouldn't let us watch""I always had a funny feeling" type posts.

Instincts are vastly over rated. Confirmation bias is the main factor work, with a healthy dollop of post hoc rationalization.

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Hakluyt · 03/07/2014 13:32

Sarah- I don't know how, but I missed your post. I hope all this hasn't brought up too many painful memories for you- good that he got what he deserved (eventually). You are right, though, that it is often difficult to differentiate between instinct and prejudice. That is what the Saville/Harris business is highlighting. People say their instincts warned them about Saville- but not about Harris. Because one looked like a wierdo and one didn't.

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PhaedraIsMyName · 03/07/2014 13:46

Hakluty for once I agree with you. I disliked Savile because I'm a snob. I like articulate, elegant and cultured people; even more so if they're posh. Savile was none of these.

Harris was articulate, reasonably cultured and avuncular. I was shocked and queried it. The bloke I referred to on the music forum gave me a deserved telling off and pointed out I was effectively not believing the victims.

Paul Gambaccini has allegations pending. He ticks the boxes for meeting my approval and is a liberal American to boot. If the allegations against him are founded then clearly I have no "instincts"

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RockandRollsuicide · 03/07/2014 14:05

I have thanks Hakult some people are reading whats not there into it and being ridiculous.



People say their instincts warned them about Saville- but not about Harris. Because one looked like a wierdo and one didn't

But there will be people out there beyond the ether who also mistrusted Harris too..Just because some peoples instintcs are off, or prejucided does not mean we stop trusting them, we need to be more in tune with them.
some people are going to be more in tune, some people simply more street wise.

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