Why are poor children considered a lost cause

[mrsbucketxx]

I had my ds's new school induction yesterday and there attitude to families who are less well off really shocked me, if you earn less than 16k your child will receive extra dupport in their education more help at home etc.

Aibu to think they are saying if your poor you have less intellegent children, or you are less likely as a parent to support your childs education at home.

Help with lunches yes
Help witn paying for trips yes

I dont think extra staff and home support is needed it would look like a slap in the face as a parent just cause I dont earn as much.

Or am I being extra sensitive.

[Linseed]

I don't remember having to disclose the family income when my children were at school. Is it compulsory now to do so when applying for a school place?

[TheLovelyBoots]

"And I can't understand how anybody can't see that parenting and attitude will have a far bigger impact than money."

The same factors that determine success will also determine how you parent.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

Wow, there are a lot of people here buying into the myths of the culture of poverty which damages these poor students and continues the treatment of poor people - including these children - as being in poverty due to character flaws rather than the systems that keep people in poverty that, while not perfect, the pupil premium is trying to correct. We require cash to survive, let alone thrive, and the extra money goes more to the root of the problem than blaming parents in poverty.

If all of society, all the media, your teachers, the history and literature your taught, everything you see states these lies that poor people are lazy and less like to connect to education (which is bollocks, wealthy parents are just as likely to disconnect and discourage education, I experienced this first hand as a child and have seen it in wealthy schools), how are you going to feel about yourself? about education? Parents can only do so much to fight against the system designed and continues to benefit from having an mass group of people under educated, under employed, under paid in a system that requires money to get the things required to survive rather than thrive, all of society around us gives us messages too that as we get older often gets louder. And yet, the people at the bottom dealing with this are the ones getting punched rather than those that are sustaining the systems that hurting us. Which is why things aren't changing, those people benefit from the divisions that prevent solidarity.

[BreconBeBuggered]

No, Linseed, it's not compulsory. Schools are encouraging people to apply because they receive extra funding, which can be used to support children in whatever way they can demonstrate is most effective in raising standards.
Children who qualified at any time in the last 6 years can still attract PP. It's not a case of a sudden withdrawal if family income goes up by £1.

[MorrisZapp]

Sorry but poorer parents are in general less likely to engage in education than better off ones, that's not an opinion, it's fact.

[ReallyTired]

"And I can't understand how anybody can't see that parenting and attitude will have a far bigger impact than money."

Money makes life more comfortable and life easier.

A rich kid may not be cold and hungry and share a room with two siblings. But he may be fed crap by a string of shitty au pairs, hardly see his parents and be bullied by his brother. (Again random examples(

The pp is not designed to prevent child abuse. Giving children from cash strapped families extra resouces is designed to make up for a lack of resources rather than poor parenting. Combatting poor quality parenting is a complex issue and not just a matter of money. Helping cash strapped families is relatively simple in comparison.

"The fact that you can earn £11999.99 (random example) and qualify for this help yet earn a penny more yet be worse off due to drops in benefits/support etc is ridiculous."

The cut off has to be made somewhere. (I believe 16K) The introduction of universal benefit is designed to make the cut off a little less stark.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

I know a cut off has to be made somewhere. The point is that many working above the cut off are in a worse position than those who do.

And I never said it was to stop child abuse

The point is that there could still be plenty in their lives that mean that the child is still poorly nourished or not fully engaged with school due to chaotic or abusuve or deprived lifestyle.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

And that money is not an indication of those things.

[Retropear]

Morris not necessarily poor children from all other ethnic groups do a lot better than white poor children and many do very well.

[MorrisZapp]

But generalised overall, poorer children do not have the same support as better off children. It is not 'bollocks' to say so, as in the post I was replying to.

Of course there are myriad anomalies and trends but overall, the facts remain.

[Retropear]

All other ethnic groups have children doing well so clearly many poorer children have parents who support education and hard graft.

The question is when do we start holding other parents more accountable.

There is no excuse not to support your dc in education and surely at some point there should be some level of accountability towards those who hold their kids back.This constant nanny state as regards healthy eating,truancy and attitudes towards education doesn't seem to be working.

[ReallyTired]

"The point is that there could still be plenty in their lives that mean that the child is still poorly nourished or not fully engaged with school due to chaotic or abusuve or deprived lifestyle."

There will always be children who fall through the net. Some children are easier to catch than others. The problems of a child in a wealthy chaotic family are unlike to be solved by throwing money. There are already systems that a school can use (in theory) to report abuse.

I suppose its about doing the most good with the least amount of money. Stastically children from low income families underachieve as a group.

[BreconBeBuggered]

Ever 6 www.gov.uk/pupil-premium-information-for-schools-and-alternative-provision-settings

[Gileswithachainsaw]

I agree with you there retro.

There is an ever increasing reliance on school to solve problems/feed children/cover costs etc.

And it's great that the help is there because no child should suffer. But it's not tackling the reasons behind why this is the case.

Some are in dire circumstances and it's a real life saver there's no denying that, but there are some who take it just because they can and it's one less thing they have to do.

Perhaps we need easier access to adult education opportunities, or cookery classes etc with less age cut offs so it's open to everyone.

[TheLovelyBoots]

Goodness. No-one is saying that money makes someone a better parent. It's far more complex than that.

Again: the same kinds of factors that will drive someone into poverty will inform the way they parent. For example, lack of education. An abusive background. Mental illness.

[ReallyTired]

"Again: the same kinds of factors that will drive someone into poverty will inform the way they parent. For example, lack of education. An abusive background. Mental illness."

Even children with excellent parent can suffer social exclusion due to lack of money. Our primary has spent money on uniform, after school clubs, school outings for FSM.

Finding £180 for a school residental is really hard if you are on benefits. Being a good parent does not make it easier to find that kind of money.

[mrsbucketxx]

i didn't say that the children who need help shouldn't get it, it was just sold to us as poorer children need the extra educational support.

now to me that means that they think they are less likely to succeed. i was from a poor family as a child so was my dh we worked hard at school and done well for ourselves.

there was nothing to say we needed supporting or have extra funding maybe the lack of it pushed us a little more i don't know.

if a poor child needs help they should get it and if not lets put the money into other initiatives that support those who do need it

[Hakluyt]

"Morris not necessarily poor children from all other ethnic groups do a lot better than white poor children and many do very well."

I did give you one of the reasons why this is so about some(not all) ethnic groups- but you brushed my reply aside as not relevant.

[Hakluyt]

"i didn't say that the children who need help shouldn't get it, it was just sold to us as poorer children need the extra educational support.

now to me that means that they think they are less likely to succeed"

Statistically they are. You just can't argue with that, sorry. And it would be "writing them off" to ignore that fact. So giving extra support to poorer children is levelling the playing field a bit.

[mrsbucketxx]

which is a shame this points to cultural issues more than financial.

as some poor groups do well and some don't

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

MrsBucketxx - I cannot comment on how the school induction you went to presented the issue of the pupil premium and additional help for low income families.

In individual families of course income is not the only indicator of academic acheivement/ parent support and involvement in their childrens education. I know very low income families where the children are well supported high achievers. As a child I was on free school dinners for a while - which today would have attracted pupil premium funding but I went on to do well at school and college/ University.

But as an indicator of likely academic achievement nationally then income is strongly linked to low achievement. That is why the pupil premium exists and schools have a requirement to monitor and report on the progress of pupils who are in receipt of fsm as well as children with SEN and from ethnic minorities. There is still support for children with special needs and gifted and talented children. My children are not in any group singled out for special attention but the school has always monitored their progress and offered extra support where required - any good school will. My dd is in an extended support group for maths - not because she is particularly bad at maths but because she 'thinks' she is - a comon issue for female students and the extra attention is there to build her confidence - it seems to help. That is the sign of a school that pays attention to all it's pupils needs.

The head of your school may have the wrong attitude to the purpose of pupil premium funding but I don't think its existence stigmatises the poor - just recognises a correlation.

[mytwoblackandwhitecats]

I don't think it stigmatises either. I can understand, however, reading these posts, how the OP felt.

I would feel embarrassed, upset and angry at my child being seen as a child in 'poverty', it being assumed I had low aspirations myself, at visions of my child crawling into a cold bedroom she shares with three other children with perhaps a candle as the electricity has been cut off, with her stomach rumbling after an inadequate evening meal and no breakfast to look forward to.

Of course, people aren't making those assumptions about you individually but nonetheless, they are there, because otherwise the PP funding would not exist.

I am not saying it is a bad thing; I am saying I understand it smarting.

[Prelude]

The article about poverty myths posted up-thread is very interesting and takes a much broader view of issues surrounding poverty and education. Well worth reading - thank you.

[Prelude]

(That was to TheSpork)