To want mum to 'invest' with us

[dorasee]

Hi there, a bit of brief background: For many years my mum has been coming over to the UK to stay with my family and me (hubby, 3 kids now). It's always been a pleasure and we are very close and we all get on well. The kids love grandma, she's a second mother to my hubby and it's generally all good. She is a bit high maintenance in that she likes to chat all the time and I don't get any down time, but I've learned to manage this knowing that time with my 80 year old mother is somehwat limited. I enjoy her and I love her. Her health is not good. In the past 3 years, she's battled cancer, crippling bursitis, back problems, thyroid disease, and 3 months ago, a small stroke. Mentally, she is very much with it and has a youthful spirit, despite her ailments. Dad died 10 years ago and since then, mom has stayed with my brothers and my frequently. Because her one time 3 month visits have become 1 year visits and also because of her health, I proposed that she come live with me full time. She lives alone in a house that actually, she is never in anymore on account of the fact that she is always staying with me or one of my brothers. Her house has fallen into a state of neglect.
This past year, after years of renting, hubby and I bought a house. We had the talk with mum asking her to come and live with us. We were honest and said that we could afford a 3 bedder, but in order to make it work with her living with us, we would need a 4 bedder so that she could have her own room. In order to do this, we would need her financial input. We were not happy to have to ask this of her, but in order to house her long term, we realistically couldn't do the 4 bedder entirely on our own. She agreed and was enthusiastic about living with us and helping us with the house which would also be her home. One of my brothers is totally on board and thinks it's a great offer. My other brother won't talk to me about it. He doesn't want our mother to sell her only asset and give her money towards our home. I understand where he is coming from. And my fear is that my husband and I come across as greedy. But we made it very, very clear when we were buying that in order to have mom live with us, we would have to buy the 4 bedder which was out of our budget. We bought the home with the clear understanding from mom that she would come to live with us permanently and we would look after her needs.

She has come over for a year long visit. These visits are great but they are long and we support her financially while she's here, from private dental work to her clothing and haircuts/coulours, I pay for it all. We are on one income and we are really struggling. I don't want to tell mum to pay for her own things, not at all, but the idea of her living here permanently without any form of contribution is too hard on us. Since her arrival, she has made it pretty clear that she no longer intends to sell her home and invest with us. She still wants to live with us eventually and says that maybe in one year, she will return home and see how the market is and then rent her house out. But there is no talk of selling and when I mentioned my husband's fear of having to sell this house we are now in if we find it difficult to afford (we did bite off more than we could chew, but we did this thinking mum would help out), mum's reply was "Oh he's panicking. He can afford the house, don't worry." She is not hearing that in the past 6 months, my hubby's income has dropped by £30k and will continue to do so. This was not an issue when we bought the house and we could not see this fall in income coming. So it's been a big fright.

She doesn't quite get that this offer of her living with us is a serious one, a big lifestyle change to consider for all of us and one which requires a few financial discussions involving my brothers as well. It is something we have totally committed to but I don't think it's happening. And I think mum plans on coming back and forth as she has done over the years, to stay one year with me and then go home to stay another year with my brother while letting her home fall apart. As she gets older and her health fails, I worry about how to manage her. Inviting her to live with us was one way of dealing with this.

My husband and I are wondering if we should just let the idea of her living with us go. We've put the offer out there, but now we're feeling as if we've proposed something disagreeable or even greedy. We feel like we've come across as money grabbers because mum won't talk about long term plans with us. She's just kind of 'here and now' and doesn't want to think of her own long term needs. And now we feel embarrassed bringing up the fact that we would need financial input from her in order to make this living situation in this particular house we've bought work out. Should we just draw a line under this idea and move on? This would mean selling up in a few years time or getting a lodger in. It would be difficult in this case to look after mum and it's something I wouldn't be able to manage in a smaller house with one of the kids sharing a room with elderly grandma struggling with poor health. I don't think it would be right or comfortable for her or the kids. Am I being unreasonable/selfish in wanting to perhaps let go of the plans we thought we had made with mum? Because it seems to me that in the end, there is no plan in place and I'll just have to let her get on with living her life in the way she's happiest with. She gives the idea of living with us lots of lip service, but no commitment, no plan or guarantee. Thanks for any input and sorry this is soooo long.

Why should she want to pay? She gets what she wants anyway. Life style funding, and a place to live for free already. Of course she does not see it necessary to sell her house, as she can see that you CAN in fact afford it, as you are doing it already.

You need to stop the year long fully funded visits, and talk to her about how much money you are spending on her, and that you simply cant afford it unless she chips in.

Very difficult situation.
You've committed yourself financially on basis of a verbal agreement. You have to assume now that there will be no financial contributions from her.
I can only guess she has some kind of pension - is she spending any money here in UK?

You have to assume she isn't going to contribute.
Can you look for a work yourself?

If you do so you have to make sure all your family knows that in case of your mum needing 24/7 help you would need financial commitment from her or/and your brothers.

You can't afford paying for treats for her so don't. If she needs dental expenses covered she needs to buy her own insurance. What about NHS? Is she entitled to full access? Are her conditions managed by doctors here?

Imagine worst case scenario that she has another stroke and is bed or house bound - what would you do then?

Are your brothers living near by? Would all her care be left to you?

Yes stop funding her lifestyle. No wonder she doesn't want things she change.
She has an income from somewhere. She has a house. Yet she manages to freeload from other people, meaning her savings are growing. Chances are to commit to the original agreement, she wouldn't need to sell the house, she possibly could give you a lump sum. But she doesn't see the need.

How much input has your other bother have? Had he talked to your mum and said they selling her house wasn't such a good idea?

My is rents had a similar arrangement with my gran. When my grandad died she stayed rithnus for more than 6 months. Later on she struggled like hell to seek the house where she and get DH had lived so many years. Doing that was very hard for her. It was selling memories too.

I think your mum, like my gran when she arrived at that age, doesn't really grasp the concept of what us financially possible or what the future would hold.
You need to make it very clear to her. Tell her you can't pay for her hair do (why are you paying btw?), or that she will have to pay for the dentist too. Tell her she needs to do some if the food shopping too as you just don't have the money anymore.
I mean in some ways, she has some sort if income so why isn't she contributing too?

And have a word with your two brothers, ask them what they intent to do re your mum as she is clearly unable to live alone (even if it's just the fact she doesn't want to be on her own in an empty house). Talk about cost and who will be paying and where is the money going to come from. Talk about who is she going to live with.
Then approach the issue of your mum giving some money to pay for your bigger house and how it should be done (if she is, that would be a donation to you. Can she give the same to your two brothers? Or are they both happy to 'give up' on that on that ground you are in effect paying everything for her?)

Btw you have one big issue here. You are snning forbthrvfiturevassumingnyiur mum will be with you. So you bought a bigger house and are now trying to keep that house so she can stay in the future.
You are assuming that when she really can't live on her own, that's what us going to happen. (Yes I am aware she sort if agreed to it).
The one thing you haven't done is having an agreement with all the people involved, your dm and your dbs. Agreement on where she would live and who/what would paid.

In my experience, this us exactly what starts lots of fights within the family as one person sees doing X as looking after mum whilst the other sees that as one person getting all the money they can from the situation.

Also am I right in saying that the brother who doesn't want her to sell is also one who doesn't have his dm staying for year long stays?

I would say a year is too long to be a guest, how about saying no, she can stay a maximum 3months.

I would get a lodger in, there's no space, you need the help to fund the house as you can't afford it, you are keeping the larger house incase she wants to move in in the future, but moving in means paying rent to you or putting in a lump sum. If she wants to keep and rent out her own home, fine, she can pay rent from the rental income she gets from that. I would clearly say "Mum, we can't afford to keep you for more than 2 to 3 months, after that, it's too much financial strain, you'll have to pay your own way or move in with DB."

don't push her to move in, just plan your life in a way that makes it clear you won't just have her live for years at a time on you and DH.

What about your PIL, is there an expectation on that side too?

Does your DM live abroad? If so where? You don't have to say but you should be aware that in some countries if a woman dies the property is taken by the state unless there is a male on all the paperwork and bank accounts. Even if your DM were to become unwell and have to stay in the UK it can be difficult to gain access to monies held in foreign banks.

That aside, I can see where you are coming from. A friend recently went through something similar and it created disagreements within the family about the DM investing in one siblings house so she could live there. The others were worried about what would happen if the DM died and what would become of their inheritance ( I hate that people see their parents money as their inheritance! It's not, it's their parents money to do with as they wish.)

I think, though you have made this offer, with best interests, it is obviously not going to happen so you should let it go. However, you would be wise to make sure financial affairs are in order and perhaps consider POA being set up because at your DMs age things do happen and it's best to be prepared.

Oh, and stop paying for your DM. You can't afford it, end of.

The quietest thing to do is sort your own house out and stop looking at the future with mum in it. Maybe downsize.

If DM sees actual steps to do that she might rethink. However I'm guessing DBS may not be so supportive if they think you will reap more than a third of estate.

It's DM life/death and it is her right to not look at it at all if that's her wish. Not a jot you can do. Just plan your own as you wish it to occur. Sorry.

The idea of buying a smaller house that suits your family needs and you can afford, but means you can only have your mum stay for a few weeks, not a few month, is a better plan, ideally get somewhere with scope to go into the loft/extend over the garage etc if your mum later decides she would like to move in with you and pay into the house (avoiding having to move again). Buying your current house without her handing over any cash first was foolish, and put you in a bad position.

I would move, unless you are very attached to the house, rather than get a lodger in. Something cheaper that has scope to extend, but if you are talked into extended, make it clear that no work will be done without money being handed over first - you can not afford it, so if your DM wants you to have a room for her, she'll have to pay for it. If your DBs want you to provide care for your DM, they will have to accept that costs, or do it themselves.

This happens in too many families, often siblings not offering to share their home or give up any of their time get annoyed about 'their inheritance' being spent by the one doing it, without thinking that a care home or a couple of staff members would cost a fuck load more. When faced with family members like this, the only way is to step back somewhat.

In your situation I would sit down one evening when there are not going to be any interruptions. Both you and your husband with your DM. This can't be a quick comment in the kitchen. It needs to be seen by her to be serious and something you're having to dedicate proper time to. Then just tell her. tell her you're very sorry and you appreciate you jumped the gun in committing yourself to the bigger house bet that finances simply don't permit you to live there any more. Tell her that you have two options you either sell the house or you get in a lodger which means she would no longer be able to stay at all. Tell her you understand if she doesn't want to invest in the house but without that the visits will not be able to continue but that you'll try to pop over to see her every six months or so or alternatively she can come over and stay in a hotel when she vists because you won't have the room. When she says "you can afford it" just say "No,mum. We really and truly can't and as much as it hurts us to have to change this arrangement we have no other option."

You can't be criticised for this by your older brother since you are not asking her for the money. But she will have to realise that unless she wants to pay to live with you, its not doable.

Having said that I also think you need to bear in mind that you're likely to have to take on some aspect of her care either physically or financially and so at some point are going to have to find the money to do this as an extended family. I would therefore be cutting my cloth accordingly and buying a smaller house.

Presumably if she did invest in your house she'd go on the deeds anyway and so as long as you're tenants in common then your brothers will eventually get their share eventually anyway (although you'd have to buy them out to keep your home).

Oh and heading off complaints from your DBS, is your mum renting out her house then paying rent to you possible rather than a lump sum? That would mean your inheritance stays the same, on her death the house would still be sold and split 3 ways, so you aren't "cheating them" out of anything, but you get help to pay the bills.

If later your mum needs nursing care and has to go in a home, the rent has already been sorted to pay directly to a care home (never say never about residential care, my parents took in my grandmother for 6 years, but then she got to the stage she needed nursing care rather than just someone to cook and clean and keep an eye on her, so reluctantly they had to put her in a home).

Stop funding her lifestyle.

You may not be able to do anything about the house now, but she should sure as hell COMPLETELY pay her own way when she visits.

I know quite a few people that have downsized or not up sized to avoid this situation. She is only hearing what she wants to hear. Let her see you are financially struggling.

I think your brother is very selfish indeed and is just acting to protect what he see's as his future inheritance. If your dm was to live in a care home costs are around 2000 a month (in my area and that's cheap). The care that a family provides is far better, far more emotionally supportive and much better for your dm. Your dm is also being very selfish (sorry) to expect you to put her needs first, financially, time and emotionally, whilst you have your own dc.

If it were me, I would tell your dm and db that you will be forced to see your house unless you receive a proper allowance, and that a monthly budget also needs to be set for clothes, food, phone bill, sanitary wear etc.

You wouldn't expect to move back in with a heavily mortgaged mother and for her to pay for everything, why should it work the other way around.

If your mother does 'invest' presumably her name will be on the deeds? If this is the case, could there be problems if she needs to go into a care home in the future? I think that you (and your mother and brothers) would have to seek legal advice to prevent future problems/family feuds.

An initial obstacle to her decision not to help invest seems to have come from the brother saying it's not fair as it's his inheritance. (This is fairly selfish as it's not him homing DM.)

Why can't you mum sell, provide you the money for the extra room, but the rest of the inheritance due to him remains the same as it would have done, i.e it is split and divided already accounting for the portion you already received towards the house... If you know what I mean.

I would suggest all of you get together at the same time and have a proper talk about the burden this has put on your immediate family, and suggest ways to resolve the issue without anone missing out.

Absolutely stress that you cannot afford to continue this way and will need to downsize to a smaller place to continue to support DM which presumeably will be quite cramped...

The question you have to ask yourself is: Do you really want to live with a freeloader who takes you for granted?