To think - yes, universities should take state school applicants with lower grades

[Lemiserableoldgimmer]

.. than applicants from private and grammar schools, on the basis that this new research suggests that as a group, state school pupils appear to be more able than private school applicants with identical A level and GCSE grades. More likely to get a good degree, less likely to drop out.

here

What do you think?

We would need to consider raw scores and the level of actual percentage points that should be fairly considered rather than just the grade achieved as the grade boundary is quite wide and there is a vast difference between an average school, a poor school and a very poor school.

some unis do ask for raw marks, not just grades, certainly in Maths.

Impatient I know what you are saying- my own experience is that this kind of grade equivalence isn't so important at the A* level- once they are at that level, the students all tend to do pretty well, it's more around the B/C division. I've found students from private schools with three B's or below often seem to struggle more, especially with independent learning skills. They (and their parents) also struggle with the idea they may not come out with a sparkling 2:1 or better, the system has led them to believe they are better than they are, essentially, although they are usually hard-working and competent enough to do the course.

There has been a lot of criticism of the A* grade not being distinguishing enough, not sure what is going to happen with A levels -return to exams, use IB, whatever, we have to make decisions now on what the system is like now and I think some small (as in one/two grade) measure of flexibility depending on school is acceptable and fair.

No I don't think it is reasonable.

I went to a traditional university (I.e one that was a university before John Major turned every tech college in to a university) from a state school . I'd have hated to get in on special circumstances. Primary and Secondary state education should be pulled up not Tertiary education dumbed down.

What is it with the concept of 'fair'?

Whatever it is being discussed is always something that will never be 'fair', will always be one of the very many inequities in life. But people insist on getting very upset that they and theirs are being disadvantaged. Then they suggest a 'fix' that just moves the inequity onto another section of society.

It is what it is, a privilege, something to be worked hard to achieve.

I'd be more inclined to tell your kids useful things like, be careful what email address you use on your UCAS application, [email protected] is likely to get your application slapped into the No pile. Oddly kids and their parents don't believe me when I say it, but when the UCAS woman says it, they may take it on board.

One of my brightest was horrified when we said that johnnybigballs wasn't a good email address to use!

Apologies, I started writing this ages ago but got a call to arms from Real Life. Minor crisis over now so back to something far more entertaining - however I may have xposted something chronic!

There are so many factors in the differences between state and private. We are fortunate to live in a town with an Outstanding state secondary (Ofsted said so only last week ) and also a very well known public school, three HRHs are recent old girls. Grades wise the two groups come out remarkably similar, even though the class sizes are much smaller in the public school. It is the added extras that make the biggest difference, for instance doing DofE is automatic at the public school whereas the state school is unable to provide enough volunteers to run the awards for every child who wants to do it - this year I think about a quarter of the children are doing it, although over half the year applied. Many of the state pupils are doing all sorts of 'extras', paid for and taking place outside of normal school hours, and the fact that their core education is being covered by the state is what frees up the cash for this. There is no way we could afford to privately educate our dds completely, but there is enough money for a couple of sports clubs, weekly music lessons, and private art and language tuition. But on paper my dds would apparently have the same level of deprivation as children who came from illiterate homes and had spent most of their non-school time gaping vacantly at MTV.

YANBU. Maybe not all state school pupils, but certainly the most deprived. A child from a school where hardly anyone goes to university, who maybe has to work after school, who doesn't get help with homework, never mind tutoring, who doesn't have a quiet place to study, and still gets reasonable grades shows such enormous potential to achieve that they must be given a chance.

My friend who went to a top private school struggled at university at first because she wasn't used to structuring and managing her own work. She was so hothoused that she could barely cope without someone other shoulder walking her through things. It was really hard for her and she feels set up to fail a bit.

Phaedra It won't dumb down Tertiary education at all, it will maintain or increase its standards- because more bright students whose potential has not quite been reached by A-levels will attend. There are a finite amount of places at top unis- the question is about composition of this finite amount.

As for 'special circumstances' I would not call getting AAB instead of AAA 'special circumstances', because it sets and maintains a minimum bar- if you don't reach this, you don't get in whatever your background.

YANBU. We need to start thinking about these things.

I went to a average to slightly dodgy state school and came out with Highers at AAAAB and CSYS at AB. (The Bs were both German, which is a bastard of a subject if you ask me). Rocked up at uni to find that I was, and remained, the only state school student on my course. RG university.

The only state school student. This wasn't 1930, it was 1998. I was the only state school student to graduate in my class. I was teased a bit and called "chav". One of the things they found funniest was me talking about dinner and tea, because posh people mean different things by that When I look back at that though it was really weird - I was the only person from a normal school? Private schools make up something like 8% of the school population, and my entire class at university was people from Eton and Gordonstoun? (And before anyone asks it wasn't a very brainy subject).

If this is still the case, we need to do something to address it.

But on paper my dds would apparently have the same level of deprivation as children who came from illiterate homes and had spent most of their non-school time gaping vacantly at MTV no, they wouldn't because the admissions officers are able to look up the average grades for this school and see they are the same as the private school or indeed other schools around the country. It is not a blunt state/private divide.

This is an interesting thread but I don't think general measures will be implemented. I do think occasionally allowances are made (and should be IMO) for a child coming from a very disadvantaged background and school.
My DCs go a normal comp and my friends DCs go to a local private selective school (well one has left and gone to uni this year). I can see differences in the education and experience (as you would expect). The main disadvantage at the comp is that the DCs are all at different levels of ability and some subjects (all except 1 initially in year 7) are taught in mixed ability groups. Even at GCSE, a lot of the subjects except maths, English and science are mixed ability. This does make the teaching more difficult/slower and also means there are some DCs that don't want to be there (or are finding it too difficult) and disruption does occur. On the positive side, my DCs have learned to self-study - particularly in the subjects where they haven't managed to finish the syllabus before GCSE and AS exams!
Regarding D of E - both of the schools offer this. The main difference being the cost and the fact that my DCs get to go on expedition to Snowdonia and the private school DCs were offered Alaska and Canada!

I was one of these state-educated children who got slightly lower grades than most of the other privately-educated on my university course (I was offered BBB and actually got AAB).

I was taught Maths A level by a teacher who had never taken Maths A level, and was learning some of the curriculum with us as we went along. Mostly we just taught ourselves.

Similarly I taught myself most of my Geography curriculum at A level, because the teacher just wasn't capable. She retired the following year.

I was at a school with an intake of 150 students per year. 4 went on to university. The year before that, 1 went to university.

At no point in my school's history did they get a single student into Oxbridge.

Oh and I recently took a standardised test here in the US, as I was considering doing a university course, and I came in the top 1% among graduates. My A level results don't really reflect that.

shockinglybadteacher - don't want to 'out you' but would be very interested to know what university that was? My DD is looking at uni this year and I think would want to avoid that one!

Hellsbells, I'll PM you :)

YABU

I was from a deprived background and gained a scholarship to an independent school. If what you're suggesting was in force in the 00s, then I would have been discriminated against DESPITE "overcoming all the odds" (so sick of that phrase) and may not have made it to my chosen university, in favour of a poor student from a state school whose grades were not as good as mine.

I admire the principle behind trying to ensure a level playing field, but don't disadvantage those who have made it into a "better" school and shown they are just as worthy of university studies as someone from a state school. Positive discrimination is not how to go about it.

Of all the people I knew at uni (not just on my course) I only knew one other person who'd been to a non-selective state secondary (Nottingham btw).

I found it hard tbh, not because they weren't perfectly nice people but just because I was trying to live on a lot less money. It's easier when others are in the same boat.

It is about choosing the best candidates though. In my school I am not sure anyone would have even known how to apply for a scholarship to an independent school. In reality going to University at all was very rare from my school. So yes, the universities should take that into account when assessing a students ability.

After all universities want the best candidates, so they should choose students on whatever measurements show are the best candidates. And if that is not only grades, then yes they should take other things into account.

I was from a deprived background and gained a scholarship to an independent school. If what you're suggesting was in force in the 00s, then I would have been discriminated against DESPITE "overcoming all the odds" (so sick of that phrase) and may not have made it to my chosen university, in favour of a poor student from a state school whose grades were not as good as mine.

I think you've totally missed the point TBH. This process would not mean universities chose 'poor students'. It would just mean that they would recognise that not every bright but deprived kid was lucky enough to win a scholarship to an independent school.

In my school I am not sure anyone would have even known how to apply for a scholarship to an independent school. In reality going to University at all was very rare from my school.

See, this is what the Govt should be addressing - raising aspirations and expectations in ALL schools for those able to achieve - not just pigeonholing some pupils in some schools as "worse" than others and therefore changing the achievement expectations for them.

As usual, though, the Govt isn't addressing the root causes of the low aspiration culture and is instead throwing money at quick superficial solutions that don't work in real life.

No, if universities chose poor students, they'd have chosen me automatically no matter what school I went to. It would be means-tested admissions, which is a daft system, but even so it's slightly less daft than these ridiculous proposals - as they don't account for poor students at good schools.

"l. They will also probably spend their weekends stacking shelves in Tesco rather that going on a D of E trek. "

That's why, contrary to popular belief, extra curricular activities make bugger all difference to university applications.

It was the same with me - in my school you just didn't apply to independent schools.

I remember one kid in the year above me got accepted to Oxford to do law, she made the front page of the local paper. The teachers got massively overexcited and tried to make all of us apply to Oxford - from me (AAAAB and still wasn't going to make the standard) to my best mate (BCD and no award, the B was in drama). We laughed at it, didn't apply and continued along our own paths. I think she was the first state school kid from my town to go to Oxford, or something.