To think PSHE shouldn't be teaching yr 3 the words vagina and clitoris?

[littleducks]

We went on to see materials.

The children have to label a girl and a boy. Whole body, outline picture standing upright facing forward. They have to label fingers etc. And then penis, vagina and clitoris.

I think they should label a 'vulva' and be done with it. They don't teach that term at all. You cannot see a vagina or clitoris as the girl is standing upright.

They made a big fuss about needing to teach the correct scientific language. But it isn't.

I mentioned this and the teacher said they should draw arrows indicating the region.

(Body parts is the extent of the topic this year so they don't conver the act of sex or anything that would clarify the bits being between a woman's legs)

I was going to say yabu but if what they're being shown isn't even biologically accurate it does seem a waste of time.

I've never used the words clitoris or vulva & I'm 45.

I don't understand why you wouldn't tell them about body parts that are actually there though? Why wouldn't you? The only thing wrong here is that the materials don't show them, so as said above could be confusing.

But there are degrees of appropriateness though aren't there?

If you're doing the brain, is it enough to just put an arrow pointing towards the head saying 'brain'? Or do you need to point out the amygdala, hippocampus, frontal lobe, etc?

I really don't think that a PSHE lesson about general anatomy needs to go into that level of detail in yr 3.

General = genital.

I don't think there is anything wrong with children that age knowing what a clitoris is.

But there is something rather pointless about telling them the word and linking it to a biologically inaccurate picture.

Comparing it to the brain isn't really the same "brain" is the correct name for the organ overall. Saying it's wrong to say brain is like saying it's wrong to say "heart" rather than the specific valve.

Surely the OP's point isn't an objection to a children knowing the terms vagina and clitoris but an objection to children undertaking an exercise where they label genitals incorrectly?

The part that can be seen and correctly labelled is a vulva. Asking them to label 2 body parts which CANNOT be seen externally (unless picture to be labelled is of girl sitting with legs akimbo, which I somehow doubt) is surely creating confusion. It's like asking them to label the different kinds of teeth when the mouth is closed.

Hakluyt , too much info too early, I said. Of course there is. You wouldn't start talking to a five year old about porn would you? It's necessary information, yes but for a 11-12 year old onwards, not a five year old.

I don't think that them knowing the words vagina and clitoris are wrong.
I think to draw an arrow and labelling 'vulva' sounds most appropriate if the vagina and clitoris can't be seen.

I've noticed a lot of people refer to the whole area as the vagina

And I'm not equating the clitoris to porn, of course, it's just to illustrate that there is such a thing as too much information too early.

I just can't bring myself to be outraged by this - it's just words - for body parts - body parts all 3 of my children have an already know the names for - meh !

I think what the OP is saying is that this was a picture of external body parts- hands, feet, head, penis and then one internal body part - vagina. That makes no sense and is confusing.

If it had been heart, lungs, brain, vagina labels and a picture of internal parts that would be fine.

YABU to say that they "shouldn't be teaching yr 3 the words vagina and clitoris".

But YANBU at all to say that they shouldn't be teaching yr 3 the words without also telling them what they are (so not labelling the vulva as "vagina and clitoris".

IwinIwin, I wouldn't start talking to a 5yo about porn, but I would (and have) talked to one about the clitoris, because she pointed to it in the bath and asked me what it was. So I'd definitely have no problem with the clitoris being on the PHSE syllabus for eight year olds.

It would be like labelling a picture of a bottom as a rectum. Both wrong and a bit creepy.

It's a bit weird to label clitoris and not urethra, labia, etc. And not labelling testicles/testes on the male diagram. I would question why they think that the clitoris and vagina are the most important parts for the Y3s to know about.

I don't see an issue with the words, or whether they are age appropriate or not. If the drawing was biologically inaccurate, I would maybe have a word with the teacher.

On a technicality, YANBU

But from a practical point of view, knowing what a clitoris is (or at least talking about it) is helpful. Girls are born with a fully functional clitoris and 3, 4, 5, or 8 year old girls may not know where that orgasm is coming from unless they're given a general idea with the correct terminology.

The down side is, from that diagram you descibed, no-one will be any the wiser unless it sparks a broader discussion. That's probably a post all by itself though I suppose.

I think this is part of a published PSHE scheme, particularly if there are printed worksheets, part of the SEAL curriculum: Social, Emotional Aspects of Learning?? Don't think it does any harm to their development.

It isn't a technicality though. The reverse sexist situation would be to label the girl hands, head, feet, vulva and to label the boy as hands, head, feet, vas deferens. Thereby not labelling the penis and making out only boys' internal body parts are a matter of public discussion when describing the external appearance of people's bodies.

But labelling a brain/ heart with all the correct parts is very different to labelling the clitoris and vagina. They are learning to identify body parts so heart valves are over the top to include where as all the girls will know what they have downstairs but dont know the names for. They are able to feel these parts unlike their frontal lobe so are more 'real' to them. Its like missing off labelling your fingers and thumb when doing a diagram of the hand.
People see vaginas and the clitoris in a sexual light therefor they are dirty and should be hidden
Boys should also learn this as its important to know and understand about the opposite sex

Okay then Pompoko, we could have an external picture of a girl labelled lips, nose, vulva, buttocks. And an external picture of a boy labelled nasal cavity, oral cavity, urethra, rectum. Would that be okay? After all, people who have an issue of labelling internal body parts of one gender - this time boys - on an external picture must just being uptight and think boys' bodies are dirty, because boys can feel their urethra, nasal and oral cavities and rectums and so everyone should be discussing that alongside discussing girls' external parts.

"Girls are born with a fully functional clitoris and 3, 4, 5, or 8 year old girls may not know where that orgasm is coming from unless they're given a general idea with the correct terminology."

I would assume that if girls are having orgasms then they have worked out where they are coming from.

Even with that logic and the assumption that girls of that age are reaching orgasm (really?), I think the first step would be to help them label something more obvious e.g. urethra, labia - or testes for boys.

"I would explain it as being the part that would have grown into a penis in the womb if they were a boy."

Err, no.

No, no, no.

Decided I can't enter this debate as still in shock that my Yr 5 DD has been taught about flavoured condoms as part of Sex Ed....

The only problem here if is the arrows are going to the wrong bits. The earlier kids know the right names for things, the less of a big deal it is.

There's also the point that there will be a certain proportion of girls (whether in your area or not I don't know) who will find out about the clitoris sooner rather than later, if their families practice FGM, and the more those kids know about their own bodies, the better.