To think we are not great at naturally accepting learning disabilities in our every day lives?

[RapidRainer]

I really hope I'm not crossing a line here but wanted to be honest. Yesterday in the supermarket a very nice man of about 40 came up and started cuddling me. He had a learning disability, down syndrome I think and was happily talking to me and my children. He kept cuddling me and stroking my hair and then my children. He obviously meant no harm but I felt uncomfortable and tried to deal with it kindly, however my 3 year old obviously also felt uncomfortable. I didn't know how to deal with this situation and I think it showed to my 3 yr old ds. I literally waited for the person he was with to come over and remove the man from the situation. I wasn't annoyed at this man, I was annoyed at myself. I consider myself a kind person, but I felt I dealt with this situation badly and did not set a good example for my ds. I feel I lacked a skill set or the confidence to communicate well with this man, which was unfair to him. I spoke to a few friends at an event after and they agreed they wouldn't really have known what to do and then I kept thinking why is this? Ok so this man did not behave by what we consider to be set social convention, but actually he was nothing but kind and gentle so what is the problem? I don't feel we generally deal well with learning disabilities in our society? I'm really sorry this post is not meant to cause any offence but would welcome others views as I don't think I am the only person who would have struggled in this scenario but I do think I as an individual and society more widely need to become more accepting and find a way to addressing this. As I said above I feel I dealt with this badly rather than in a positive way.

Tbf on people who care for adults with ld and I think in the op case the mans carer did let the man down, but some are cuddily and the carers cant change their personslity iyswim

Carers can't change their personality, no, but part of their role is to manage any anti-social behaviour, which this is. The carer fell down here.

I know a man with Downs who has full time carers. He's a lovely chap, but big and also quite tactile and cuddly. His carers are also big blokes who can intervene when necessary and a lot of work is done to keep reminding the man of appropriate behaviour. As someone else said, he spent most of his life in a hospital setting, so it's hard for him to learn now, but he is capable of doing this.

I think it also doesn't help that some children with learning disabilities (especially Downs) are seen as cute and special - not many people would turn away from a hug from a 4 year old with Downs. And this super friendly behaviour is reinforced inwittingly- causing problems when that 4 year old turns into a large, strong adult.

Yes, there is too much emphasis on accepting the child and not trying to change the way they are out of an excuse not to spend any money on specialist support respect for them.

My preferred reaction would be a written complaint about the carers tbh in hope that they get more training, or get the leverage to have their requests for training granted. It also shows lack of apathy about 'someone elses problem' and if enough of us did it the quality of care and intervention would increase.

It is very cheap to expect people to simply accept and tolerate what should not be tolerated or face guilt for not doing so.

My father used to work with adults with learning disabilities, I used to go to work with him for the day from about age 11 (things were very different then...), I would help or just hang out. He taught me from very early on how to nicely and kindly, but very firmly disentangle my self from hugs and keep and appropriate personal space.

Some of people that lived at the home used to do far more inappropriate things that hug strangers, from a strangers point of view you could argue that this guy you met has been let down, or should have been taught better. In fact it could be that he is a lot lot further on than he used to be and is still learning.

Sure, but if he is still learning, then there should be a lesson plan and much closer supervision as well as targets, modelling, practise sessions with prepped 'others'.

What happened was uncontrolled and put him at great risk of being unsuccessful at the lesson at best, and thumped at worst.

Yes I agree the carer was way off the ball and that s not fair on anybody,

It's not. And it's not fair on the carer who was very likely recruited with little training on a poor wage, which is why these things must be documented. Adults with LD is so very far off any governments agenda. Indeed a Tory MP recently said they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

And the carer is only picking up the pieces of a failed childhood/education most of the time.

My sister is a carer she is very well trained and good at her job bur she was working with women who had been in institutions from childhood and she said these people have been failed, well she was a bit more animated about it, imo the care system in this country is shocking sometimes, there is a care company where I live and they target young girls out of school give them a crb check and send them on their way with 4 daystraining

Oh I dont want people to think im carer bashing im not

My db has autism and although has improved over the years can still sometimes display innapropriate behavior. Although carers are usually quick to act,he can also do things with little or no warning. It is like having a toddler in an adults body,and I'm sure we have all had toddlers who have done something at lightning speed before we have had chance to stop them.

I think everyone who is saying the carers have let him down/not taught him may be misunderstanding- with the best will in the world, sometimes people with LD repeat behaviour even if taught very carefully it is not appropriate, and secondly they are not always on a one to one- they may be out with two or three individuals, and so if one person goes off for a moment, and given they are not imprisoned, why shouldn't they, they may go down an aisle independently and then cuddle someone.

I think the advice you have got is great, it's not appropriate to cuddle people you don't know, so putting a boundary in place is fine. If you get to know them though, cuddling may be ok, we have a friend with LD and she hugs me and the children when we meet and that's fine, we know this is part of her ways and the children don't feel worried about it at all. It's all about context and how well you know someone.
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One of my relatives was a carer for an adolescent who had a thing about men's legs. That was quite stressful as they would be going on a shopping trip and he'd suddenly dive down and start stroking someone's trousers. Even standing next to the carer he'd do this occasionally. If you want people with a LD to have a full life though, go to the theatre, shopping, out and about, then there is this risk, even with supervision- and I think we should be understanding of this behaviour if we can, whilst not being afraid to move away/assert our own bodily boundaries.

I guess you didn't want to upset him so didn't know how to make him stop without doing so?

I think I would feel similar. I'm glad to know from this thread that it's okay to say "Please don't hug me. I don't know you." or don't touch my DD's hair, she doesn't like it, etc.

I think that British people are quite bad at telling someone if they are upset. It's also very socialised into us as women not to make a fuss if someone (especially a man) is giving us more attention than we want. It's hard to fight this conditioning!

I dont expect people to be kept by the carers side but by the way ive read the op the man was hugging for a long time with nobody watching out for him

'sometimes people with LD repeat behaviour even if taught very carefully it is not appropriate'

Teaching isn't the same thing as learning. And where is the line/priority drawn?

Is masturbating in public okay? what about being a risk of running away?shop lifting?

Is it fair enough to dismiss these behaviours as something the carers cannot be expected to control for or stop as they did try really hard to teach them not to do it after all?

No. If their 'teaching' hasn't worked then they haven't taught and they need to get additional training to become more effective. I am not saying this is easy, but I am sick of the apathy that puts the inability of someone to learn as the fault of the learner when it isn't, it's the fault of the teacher (often unknowingly but that is due to the culture we live in unfortunately).

Hi Rapid. I think you dealt with that situation kindly. I have a 12 yr old son with LD's and autism. We are working with him, as are his school, on issues around appropriate and inappropriate touching, as he likes the feel of skin and likes to touch people's arms. He wouldn't try to touch a stranger but he is too touchy with people he knows. It's incredibly important that he understands this because he could get himself in a lot of trouble as he gets older.
He got into a bit of trouble at school because of it - and on reflection this was a good thing. He is learning and behaving more appropriately. I prefer to tell him to "high five" people - shaking hands is a bit old fashioned.
It would definitely have been ok to ask the man to stop touching you.

The carers in groups that my DS attends aren't always aware of the issues and seem happy to be stroked. We don't think this is ok and my husband is very strong with the carers about this.

Where does it stop though...do we go back to where we were as a society 60/70 years ago and insist that unless it is guaranteed that a person can conform to our social norms they should be kept out of sight?

Some people with a learning difficulty will never be capable of learning no matter how good the teacher. Often there will just not be the budget to enable a person to be out with a team of people who can dive in like a swat team to stop every single bit of inappropriate behavior.

'Where does it stop though...do we go back to where we were as a society 60/70 years ago and insist that unless it is guaranteed that a person can conform to our social norms they should be kept out of sight?'

Of course not. We make sure that full inclusion is adequately supported with a plan towards independence at the fastest rate.

'Some people with a learning difficulty will never be capable of learning no matter how good the teacher.'

Everyone is capable of learning. Some people are slower than others but proper investment in this from an early age means that over their lifetime they will cost less to the 'budget' than being starved with minimum support their who lives but undertrained staff and apathetic public.

'a swat team to stop every single bit of inappropriate behavior.' A swat time is crisis management not training. If you've got to that the training thus far has been inadequate and inappropriate. Behaviours need to be targeted and rehearsed and EXPERTS need to be recruited. That way adults with LD will require the minimum and inexpensive caring for the majority of their lives.

I have a child with DS. He is four and is incredibly cute (biased!!) so I don't mind him hugging people at the minute, but I know in the future we will have to deal with this. Some people have made good points re he should have been taught that this sort of behaviour is inappropriate.

However, we are moving towards a society where it will become unusual to meet someone with Down's Syndrome, a huge proportion of people who find out their child will have DS chose to terminate - 94%. It makes me sad that it will become even harder to integrate our children when having DS will become even more unusual.

Luckily we are moving away from people with LD being "institutionalised" and that is why it is so important our children have a chance to attend mainstream school and mainstream activities with other children.

I hate as a society we are poor at dealing with people with LD. However just because someone had LD it doesn't mean they can behave inappropriately or we should accept that behaviour.
I agree with star that this man has been failed because he's not been taught acceptable behaviours! and if he has been shown but is not able to adapt his behaviour he was tailed by being left unsupervised.

Both you and he were put in a vulnerable position.

I also have a child with SN/LD/ disability. He does not yet have the filter between brain and mouth so he's supervised when out and if needs be helped to think of better ways to say what he's saying.

Hi All, sorry only just caught back up with thread. My son and I had a long talk afterwards about lots of different people doing things in different ways and it was good that people were different and to accept that unless it made you feel uncomfortable, then we had to tell the person to stop politely and tell mummy (or other adult).

I felt at the time I froze, when his carer came over I shook his hand and said it was nice to meet you and bye, but I then thought did this reinforce the behaviour as acceptable, which it wasn't but his intention was. I suppose I think there should be give from both sides of the fence, regardless of disabilities everyone should be supported to understand boundaries in society, but also everyone else needs to understand that our society is built on social constructs which often go against natural instinct (hence why a child needs to learn what is acceptable or not etc) and it isn't always easy for a person with LDto understand these or always remember the rules. I think the real shame is we have almost become so politically correct that we don't dare discuss this or admit we aren't sure how to handle situations in a positive way etc. On reflection I'm glad this happened as it has given me the starting point to make sure I am open with DS and his baby brother in helping them to be more accepting in society.

We all accept more easily what we know and are used to. My father was blind from about the time I was born and although he is long dead I am at ease with blind people; but I recognise and fight in myself a tendency to get irritated with deaf people.

A colleague of mine whose late father used a wheelchair has the same experience; she sees the person,not the wheelchair. But she and I both got irritated with the same deaf computer-geek in the officer, and it was in discussing it afterwards, embarrassed and self-critical as we both were, that we shared the experience and spotted the obvious connection.