to wish my brother was slightly more refined?

[Riverspirit]

My brother is 2 years older than me (I am 32.) He is a well-meaning person. By that, his heart is definitely in the right place, however, his lack of regard for societal 'norms' is a massive worry.

We were both brought up in a fairly standard middle-class household and were definitely taught good manners, yet my brother has none. I don't mean using the wrong knife at the dinner table or similar but really basic stuff. I know my mum and my dad set a good example to us in how to speak to people and were strict (not overly so but had high standards) with please,thank you, and excuse me.

This is my brothers actual way of going about things - we went for lunch today in Pizza Express: not highbrow but nice enough. He wore mucky, torn jogging bottoms and a huge hoodie - two sizes (at least) too big. This is his staple outfit, getting dressed up involves a pair of jeans.

He pesters the waiters - 'when is it coming?' No please or thank you. He shovels food in and chews with his mouth open. If he has a hot drink, he slurps it. Loudly. If he coughs or sneezes or burps, he does so loudly and unashamedly. Not even as in 'that's funny' - just does it, like no one is around him. He slouches in chairs and yawns loudly - very loudly - and doesn't cover his mouth. His teeth are not good - the back ones need a lot of attention, and yawning like this is really unpleasant. Farts unselfconsciously.

Then there's the lack of regard for other people - he constantly says 'well so? Nobody knows me!' He urinates not quite in public but will turn his back and pee - fair enough in an emergency but in a public footpath? With public toilets minutes away? In town today I said, 'I'll get some cash out' He BELLOWED my name, so people stopped and stared, rather than come and get me.

I am constantly apologising for him.

The heartbreaking thing is, he is desperate for a girlfriend and is very, very lonely. He has a small handful of friends from school days but their wives and girlfriends, now, dislike my brother and refuse to spend time with him.

I want to help. Yet he won't let me. He just says 'no one knows me/I wouldn't do (fart/yawn/sneeze) out with a girl/ I wouldn't wear a hoodie on a date.' He can't seem to see its part of a general impression he gives - of, I hate to say it, a complete tramp. His house is disgusting as well.

When I pictured us being adults together I wanted a friendship. As it is, I find it REALLY hard to spend any length of time with him as his habits are crude and frankly,nauseating.

Leave him be.

My brother is 14 months younger than me (I am 29, there is only two of us in the family) and he is an arrogant, selfish dentist who has complete disregard for anyone or anything.....he was brought up to think he was gods gift (my mother adored him and always did and always does make excuses for him)...this hasn't helped him

Point is...we haven't spoken in 6 months. he gets on with his life, I get on with mine. we have no reason to communicate, we don't speak when we do see each other and seldom even think about each other and if anything were to happen to our parents, only contact he would make is to see if they have left anything for him.

I know he wont change. I don't expect him to change. He doesn't expect me to change and knows I wouldn't. I don't expect anything of him.

we live and let live. we get on with our lives.

My suggestion is to let him get on with his life. if he needs help....I am sure he will ask. Get on with your work, your kids, your family.....your brother is old enough to know where help is if he needs it. Accept him for him, know he will change only when he wants to change...and let him live his life the way he wants

If he won't clean up his act in order to attract the right kind of attention from the ladies then nothing you do or say will make any difference at all. That's generally the only reason some men actually wash themselves more than once a year.

Just make sure that when you're out in public with him it's where no-one else you know will see you.

Every time he mentions the no-girlfriend-activity he needs to be told precisely why.

He sounds a bit like my brother although worse. My brother went to a v nice boarding school and speaks and acts like an oik! He/recently qualified as an oesteopath and doesn't even pronounce that, he says osteo-paff! He leeches of my mother and only works v part time. I wouldn't mind the money bit if he was nice to my mother, or did a few jobs for her, but he's always arguing, asking for money and he's well over 40.

I keep my distance to be honest. He knows what's right and wrong, and chooses to be like that, so that's it. I'm here for him, I just don't get caught up in it.

Sounds really odd behaviour considering you were both brought up together. Are your parents alive and if so what is their view?

Has he got friends who are similar? Can you recall when his behaviour started to change? How does he perform at work - i.e. does he check his manners there, can he adapt to different environments ??

He sounds a bit like my brother although worse. My brother went to a v nice boarding school and speaks and acts like an oik! He/recently qualified as an oesteopath and doesn't even pronounce that, he says osteo-paff! He leeches of my mother and only works v part time. I wouldn't mind the money bit if he was nice to my mother, or did a few jobs for her, but he's always arguing, asking for money and he's well over 40.

I keep my distance to be honest. He knows what's right and wrong, and chooses to be like that, so that's it. I'm here for him, I just don't get caught up in it.

Sadly our parents are no longer with us.

It is odd and it's easy to say "oh, don't see him" - but he's the only family I've got! And also, he is so very isolated and as such needs me: I was with him and one of my friends earlier who thankfully is a very loving and understanding person, but the contrast between our relationship and hers and her sisters breaks my heart.

He has only recently started working again after a long period of ill-health and he is undoubtedly struggling - a client at work accused him of being drunk (he wasn't) but it gives an idea of his general demeanour.

My heart breaks for him.

Could he be miserable/depressed? It really doesn't sound like normal behaviour (for anyone really - but especially given both of your backgrounds). Perhaps he needs a little help.

I don't doubt he is depressed,but he has had years of psychotherapy and extensive medication. If anything, it's a case now of trying to stop him going to the G.P for anything and everything. Can't sleep? See the doctor. Headache? Doctor. Feel sick? Doctor. His medical file was described as the largest ever seen - including files of elderly patents with complex illnesses

I know, there's nothing I can do but it hurts seeing someone like this and feeling so helpless

Yeah. I know plenty of guys that are only hygienic for their girls. We had one guy we worked with that we could always tell when he had a gf, because he'd go from a scraggly beard and messy hair to well groomed and tidy. It was funny to watch.

Has he tried internet dating? That way he doesn't have to make a first impression unless he establishes a place to meet. It might be impossible hard to meet a random girl face to face without prior knowledge of needing to clean up a bit.

not just DBro then!

Well, he's on Plenty of Fish at the moment and takes it very seriously! But he has a gender to go after fairly classy girls (yes, they do exist on POF!) He fancies himself as a bit of an intellectual and will find a doctor or teacher or solicitor and send her a message punctuated with endless "lols" about his favourite band.

It's difficult - I genuinely don't want to knock his confidence but, well. What can you say!?

Could he be aspergers/autistic?

I think that is highly probable, yes.

Arcadia I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to say it in case I got flamed.

I think we have the same brother.

Start calling him Shrek?

Not very helpful, kentishgirl

I think the problem here is that his image of himself is disconnected from the actual image he's projecting. He doesn't think of himself as being an uncharming slob so he rejects your assertion that he's acting like one.

You need to be blunt and say that if he wants to get a girlfriend, he needs to start acting within more accepted social norms all the time so that he can act naturally on dates.
This means:

• Talking about things other people find interesting (not emailing people about bands he likes for example)
• Talking to everyone politely
• Being clean and wearing clean, neat clothes
• Having good manners and being aware of what is socially acceptable and not farting, burping, urinating in public!

If only it was that easy Callani.

Quite, Journey

I've tried, gently, to raise it with him and so did our dad when he was alive, but he just responds in the same way as I've outlined above - "well no one knows me/ I wouldn't do that with a girl."

He just walked through the town centre with a pair of red shorts and no shirt. I hate men walking around topless anywhere that isn't a beach but it isn't even that warm.

The problem is he has VERY low self-esteem - criticising him would upset him but it's stalemate.

My mum and dad would be so upset for him, and so am I.

Oh poor you and poor him.

How difficult and I agree he does sound like he has as aspurgers.

I have no better advice but you sound lovely. Sorry

Oh thank you

I think he DOES have Aspergers - it was first mentioned when he was a toddler (well, autism, Aspergers wasn't really known in those days I don't think?) But he was a much wanted baby and I just don't think my mum could bear to hear any criticism of him

Get a water pistol and every time he does something you don't like - squirt him!

Reward good behaviour with a piece of chocolate!

Only joking. It's a tough one and I feel for you, it must be horrible to see your DB miserable but unable to make him see how he needs to make changes.

Is he on anti depressants? I've heard that if someone is depressed their personal hygiene can really suffer. If he is on medication maybe it needs adjusting?

Would he take advice from a "life coach" style person? Someone who could help him set goals and ways of achieving them?

Yes, he's on anti depressants, or he was - I'm not sure just now.

He is on a lot of medication for various ailments, though! Truth be told though he has always been like this. Of course when he was younger it was a teenage "thing" but at university he wore the same jumper for three years pretty much (no really.) He doesn't like clothes to touch his skin so he buys them large and he is far from large.

If you've already voiced your concerns then it's very difficult to know what else to suggest. I mentioned this because when my cousin was diagnosed as autistic she really benefitted from an incredibly simple break down of what was and wasn't socially acceptable but if your brother won't listen then it's not easy.

Like Nellie suggests, I think if this hasn't worked you need to leave the situation be - if he comes to you for advice then give it, but you cannot instigate this change for him. He has to want to do it, otherwise you'll just be causing yourself a lot of heartache for nothing.

Hate to tell you this but my brother is like this and he is now 50 . He is actually quite happy in his own skin (thank goodness) and I am grateful that he doesn't have a close relationship !! He has a financially comfortable life style and a very good job (in some obscure IT area) so I have learned to accept him for what he is.